Little Bellies - When it Comes to Kids, Every Bite Counts

Ramon Vela (00:03.256)
Welcome back everyone. This is going to be a great show. I have with me Clive Sher, who is president and co-founder of Little Bellies. Welcome to the show.

Clive Sher (00:29.945)
Thanks so much, Ramon. Honored to be on the show with you.

Ramon Vela (00:33.09)
Well, I appreciate you making time. You're in a different time zone than I am. You also are running the business. And so I truly am grateful for the little bit of time that you can give to me and to my audience. And I can't wait to dive in into the brand. So thank you. Well, listen, I have a belief that...

Clive Sher (00:47.567)
Thank you.

Ramon Vela (00:54.41)
It is a very difficult time for consumers because there's so many products out there, so much noise out there, and everyone is trying to market their brand and so forth. So sometimes it's very difficult for consumers to see a brand and really kind of think of, there's real people behind this brand. So they see products and they just think, some faceless corporation. I like to do

on this show, like to make sure that we bring this interview into a very personal sort of human level where we talk about you, we get to know who you are as well as the brand. And I just want people to know there's there's there are people who deeply care about the product, about the ingredients, about the efficacy and all of that, who believe sweat and tear over this product. And it's a very difficult thing to do. And so I just I like to humanize it. And the best way I know to do that is through my initial sort of my

starter question, which is a gratitude question. So if you don't mind, I'd love to ask you this one gratitude question and it's, would you mind sharing a moment or a memory when someone did something for you that just made you feel grateful because it meant that they believed in you, your vision or your potential?

Clive Sher (02:14.125)
It sounds like a simple question, Ramon, and it's actually quite complicated to narrow down sometimes with so many people involved in the journey. mean, our business is in its 20th year, so it's not a new business, but it's a business we've had so many people and touch points through the journey, you know, from family and friends supporting in the background to, you know, team members to my co-founder and brother. But I think if I had to pick

one person who made a decision they didn't have to, to support the business and it made a significant difference to the journey and trajectory of the business. I would have to point out a very special man, the founder and leader of our US sales partner, a gentleman by the name of Scott Emerson from the Emerson Group. Scott has built an incredible organization. It's got an incredible

It leads an incredible team of people who guide a number of brands. They are primarily a health and beauty focused sales organization. And my co-founder and brother, Stephen, has a second healthcare business and has a strong history with Scott. And when we were planning a launch in the US,

We originally didn't think it was something that Emerson Group or Scott would look at because we're a food brand. They don't do any food brands. It's not something that's straightforward for them. But Steven approached Scott in the early days of us planning a launch, pre our original launch, explained the business and the success we'd had in our home market, Australia and New Zealand, and asked Scott if he would be open to taking on

our little Benny's food brand. And Scott, you know, didn't have to think a lot. He just came back and said, you know, willing to support and stick the and and give us an opportunity within his incredible organization. And so, you know, and then since then, the brand has grown from strength to strength. And I'm sure we'll get into the detail of its journey within the U.S. market. But Scott's decision to take us on to get his full team behind the brand has made

Clive Sher (04:36.493)
an incredible difference to the road we've been on, particularly over the last six years since we launched in North America. And so I think that the trophy goes to Scott in terms of the one person that had to score them out and his incredible generosity for giving us a chance.

Ramon Vela (04:54.443)
Well, that's great. you're right. You started off by saying there's just so many different things for so many people that you could be grateful for. And that's the thing that I love to talk about at the start of a conversation about your journey, because...

myth that entrepreneurs and founders are this like solo people who climb up the mountain on their own and by their own grit and perseverance, you know, achieve success. Well, obviously there's a lot of that too. You know, you have to have grit and perseverance, but the reality is we're not islands and we have a lot of people around us, whether their family, their friends or partners like Scott Emerson and all these people along the way who help you out in small ways, big ways, you know,

And it really is just amazing. If you really think about it, it would take a lifetime to really tell everyone or share every grateful story, gratitude story.

Clive Sher (05:53.893)
I think we could do a full podcast just on gratefulness and the people involved. know, for the sake of time and not going off on a tangent, you know, we picked one, but it's, you know, it really was actually tough to think about who I would say in that moment. But I think Scott really took a chance on us. He's got an incredible business. He's an incredible operator, a true legend of the industry.

and for him to take a chance. And we still are the only food brand within the Emerson portfolio. It's unique for them. It's different shelf life management within the industry. You know, it's something that the whole team had to learn how to kind of support. they've, you know, I'm grateful to the entire organization for what they've done, but Scott for just taking a lead in the matter of being our ambassador, I would say.

through them.

Ramon Vela (06:50.187)
Yeah. Well, that's fantastic. And thank you again for sharing that. So what I would love to do is I want to start off really easy and then we'll kind of get into the journey and into why you do what you do and why it's important for other people to know about this.

But let's start someplace easy. Let's tell everyone, let's give everyone a 100,000 foot overview of Little Bellies. What it is and what it provides. And then from there, my next question I'll ask you a little bit about how this whole thing got started.

Clive Sher (07:24.771)
No problem. So Little Bellies is a range of baby and toddler foods. We're based out of Australia and we'll talk about the founding, but it's really about a brand focusing primarily on the baby and toddler snacking segment. You know, various puffs, cookies, bars for young children. And it's about supporting

parents and children on their journey from first introduction of snacking and foods right through as their children migrate through different ages and stages and being the brand that, you know, that has a very thoughtful way of moving through each age and stage to kind of support flavor introduction, self-feeding, development, you know, hand to eye coordination and

and fine motor skill development. All of our products are incredibly considered around each age and stage and what purpose they play through that journey while still maintaining best-in-class kind of health and wellness for young children and what is the purpose. know, it's a very purposeful range for young children.

Ramon Vela (08:40.077)
Well, and just going by that, what you just said, and by the way, for everyone out there,

You can take a look at what we're talking about. And the website is littlebellies.com. Littlebellies.com. So two words. You can take a look and if you're listening to this, you can go take a look on YouTube eventually when we'll bring up the website when we talk about it. But littlebellies.com is the website. So based on what you just said, Clive, it sounds very thoughtful. It sounds like there's a lot

I mean, it's not like, hey, we just put some snacks together and offer them to little kids or made them less sugar or whatever. It sounds very thoughtful about your whole approach in terms of age group and stage and everything else. And I'm sure there's an evolution because you've been around for 20 years. Let's talk just a bit about the initial concept. Like where did the concept begin? How did it shape and where were you?

Clive Sher (09:41.763)
Yeah.

So, original concept came from family need and the lack of options within our home market Australia. So, as I mentioned, we're an Australian based business. I'm currently sitting in Sydney, Australia. It's quite early in the morning here. And my brother's eldest child, Joshua, who's now in his mid-twenties finishing medicine at university, has severe food sensitivities. He's anaphylactic to dairy, to peanuts and tree nuts. And he, for...

has suffered his entire life with really sensitive skin conditions which are often food related. So, you know, very early on in the journey of us having kids and particularly Stephen with Joshua, became acutely aware of the impact that foods have on our kids and, you know, had a strong desire to feed organic and better for you foods.

to our family and we noticed a huge lack of availability within the mainstream segment in Australia. Australia is not like the North American market where you have strong natural food vendors like Whole Foods where there was a lot of options. There were very limited options and in our local market the major supermarkets where 90 % of foods are sold and there was limited to no availability.

of high quality organic and better for you food. So we chose to start an organic food business and that led us into starting Little Bellies, which we launched a few years later into the journey and which really was driven by our passion for making better for you organic foods more widely available and accessible to a mainstream audience.

Ramon Vela (11:38.465)
Mm-hmm. And so we're talking 20 years here, or roughly 20 years.

Let me just paint the picture for other folks. So 20 years, for me, it doesn't feel like that long because I've over that. But.

Clive Sher (11:54.189)
Menina

Ramon Vela (11:56.302)
But at the same time, though, when you think about the market, now I know the Australian market is a little different, but even here in North America, in the United States, 20 years ago, we did not have the options that we have now. And organic wasn't like now. It's kind of like everyone says, oh, we have this organic this and organic this and then so forth. And it's become almost like a what do they call it? Greenwashing where people just put it in there. But 20 years ago, if you said you're organic, most

people didn't like what like what that means. We're not sure. Is it is it more pricier? Why is it organic? And all of this and so forth a little bit of an education. And obviously now people want organic foods and they want vegetables and everything else. Now people realize the importance and the quality of the nutrition of organics. But wow, back then you guys, think, were you guys were kind of take taking a chance there. Did it feel like it?

Clive Sher (12:28.517)
Yeah, yeah.

Clive Sher (12:54.629)
Yeah, it did feel like that, but it also felt like, you know, having really understood the impact, you know, that these foods were having on our family, it really felt there was just this gaping hole. You know, we do have had traveled a fair bit to North America and to Europe where there was still probably a wider availability of organic and a more mainstream acceptance, and that just hadn't come to Australia in those days. So.

We saw this opportunity to be a pioneer in that area and to really look to, I think it's a balancing act as well. It's very easy to have organic foods available at a very expensive specialty store. But we wanted to be the brand that could actually bring organic foods into the mainstream sense so that everyday consumers could afford it, find it, and enjoy it without compromising on taste and very often, you know.

the taste in organic is better. So it's really about trying to just educate and make it available.

Ramon Vela (13:58.498)
Well, I love that it's kind of like organic for the masses, right? Which is, it's just difficult to do. And, but it's a great mission. And I've always, I've often thought when I listen to brands on the show and they talk about better for you versions and what they do, I realize that many of these foods,

Clive Sher (14:02.489)
Right.

Ramon Vela (14:19.755)
are difficult for the rest of the population to get because of the cost and so forth. so I'm always, I always love hearing a brand say, our mission is to make this for widely acceptable or widely available to people.

Clive Sher (14:35.343)
But I think Ramon, if I could just say one thing, I think organic is great and it's a benchmark, like it's a base level for our brand, but organic's not enough either. For our brand, you can have organic and still have confectionery that lives and breathes as part of the ecosystem that supermarkets sell. But for us, it's really about having a holistically better product that's developed for young children.

Organic is a big part of it, but it's only the starting point, not the end point. You mentioned the term greenwashing. Well, we often use the term health washing, where we talk about brands that use one or two halo health claims to kind of drive their sales. But if you were to look at the back of pack or what's on the ingredient deck, I wouldn't be too happy serving that to my kids or eating it myself.

I think it's really about taking a holistic approach to the product and developing what we consider best in class offerings, particularly when we're about babies and toddlers and the most sensitive.

Ramon Vela (15:45.934)
Thanks for clarifying that because I think that's a good clarification or a great clarification because you're absolutely right. And my next question was really about, so you were taking this, I mean, it was a risk, of course, but it was you wanted to be the pioneer in this space. But where were you in this time? Were you already in the food or the CPG business? Did you understand what you're getting into? Did you already have the knowledge base?

Clive Sher (16:15.077)
I'm actually an engineer by profession, not a food scientist. My brother has been in the consumer goods business for quite a while through his healthcare space. And we were looking at new opportunities together and through Stephen and Joshua's needs identified organic foods and we've always...

really preferred healthier, better for you foods for ourselves as well. And really just felt that there was this hole. So, you know, I was interested in moving into my own venture. My family has always been quite entrepreneurial. My parents ran their own business in the early days and were self-made. you know, so entrepreneurial kind of journey has always kind of been in our blood.

and continues as we speak. It's, you we sometimes don't fit well into a corporate box.

Ramon Vela (17:18.189)
Yeah, no, I get that. That's me too. So, okay, so this is really good. I love how the story is shaping up and you guys got into this market and out of curiosity, I know what the North American market looks like. Is Australia now caught up to the better for you space for health, please?

Clive Sher (17:40.013)
Yeah, think the difference with Australia and New Zealand is we still have only a couple of major retailers who do the necessary volume to be able to launch and sustain a product in market. know, obviously when you're dealing in CPG and particularly in food products, there's pretty high minimum order quantities, pretty high volume. And so you really need to be in retail environments that can support that.

And in Australia, there's only a few options that can do that. So the difference being in North America where you have the likes of your natural foods channel, the likes of Whole Foods and Sprouts, they allow, you know, young brands to curate their offering, have a very specialized offering and be able to, whereas, you know, a lot of those brands wouldn't exist if they had to launch straight into mainstream grocery and mass because

the consumer hasn't yet been educated and the, I suppose, patience to launch and sustain new brands doesn't exist in the same way. So in Australia, in the mainstream sense, yes, we have a good representation, particularly within our category, baby and toddler. And in some ways, I feel our category's probably even evolved in the past where North America is. But in the mainstream sense, you don't have the same level of...

kind of specialty item just because of the nature of the retail maker.

Ramon Vela (19:12.725)
And what do you think, you mentioned earlier that you guys have been around for 20 years, right? What do you think has been a key driver for that longevity?

Clive Sher (19:26.789)
I think the key driver, it's a good question and not a simple one. I think the key driver for our longevity has been a few things. I think we've taken, you know, we needed to balance the challenge of having best-in-class, organic, better-for-you foods for young children with the need to make them accessible and available from a commercial perspective. So I think having...

really worked on and developed that balance and being at the front of the, ahead of the curve in terms of launching into that segment. We pioneered a number of the formats now wildly sold in our Australia, New Zealand market and we're first to market in a few segments within North America as well. So it's really allowed us to kind of offer something different for the category, offer a format that's been proven and has

you know, being widely accepted by consumers now as we've seen them roll out. And I suppose the benefit of us having the history of working in a mainstream sense in Australia, even though, you know, each market's different and different nuances among consumers, is that as we launch into North America, we've got more kind of confidence in proof of concept to a similar style audience. So I think...

You know, the one thing is being innovative and driving uniqueness within the market. The other point is really focus continually on putting baby first in terms of everything we do, you know, around health and wellness, around what we will and won't put into our products, around the, as I mentioned before, curating the range to be relevant for the right age and stage. And, you know, and then lastly, really engaging very

authentically and uniquely with our audience and our community and building that loyalty. think a category like ours is a very, there's a lot of insights that we have around how consumers feel about the category. There's a lot of guilt that comes with parent shopping, baby food category. And so being able to engage in an authentic way with consumers that

Clive Sher (21:48.975)
We'll never remove the guilt, but makes them feel better about shopping the category and there's a brand they can trust and that's supportive along the journey is our entire why. It's why we exist and why we want to be present for, you know, to support the parents and children on their journey.

Ramon Vela (22:07.668)
And what have been some of the challenges, especially like, let's talk about the North American market. What have been some of the challenges? Has it been really the brand awareness? Has it been an education? Has it been...

Clive Sher (22:14.042)
Yes.

Clive Sher (22:21.332)
Yeah, I mean, the journey into North America has been incredible beyond our expectations where we are today, where we thought we'd be launching, you know, six years ago. I think the challenges we've had, you know, were particularly in the early days. We launched in North America in late 2019 with our first major retailer coming on in March 2020. So that was as COVID hit.

It was people weren't shopping in store. They were shopping more online. If they were going into the store, they were trying to spend as little time as possible in store and product discovery on shelf was was really challenging. So we, you know, we developed a whole strategy to launch in markets, primarily brick and mortar focus first without it, without much of an e-commerce was to follow. But we didn't realize how quickly we needed to pivot to e-commerce at a very early stage and how.

You know, we launched Walmart was the first mass retailer. You know, we launched at a very early stage within our journey in North America. And that's who came on in March 2020. So, you know, it was, you you know, we spent a huge amount of time, money, resources, developing our U.S. strategy, planning a launch, executing it only to then have, you know, a world pandemic hit in the month that we took on our biggest retailer.

So that was a really challenging year. Would we have the distribution in the year's time based on the poor sales we were seeing due to limited store traffic? Could we pivot quickly enough into e-commerce and understand the e-commerce environment and make it work? So there'd been a lot of learnings to work through that process and really in full credit to Walmart and some of the early adopters to the brand. They were all

incredibly supportive of the brand in the early stages and, you know, more gratefulness, but really appreciate how they stuck by a young brand trying to, you know, endure through that process. So I think that was our first challenge, but other challenges have been just understanding each market has different nuances, has different expectations.

Clive Sher (24:47.909)
We came in with a really strong kind of history within our home market that we needed to adapt. E-commerce, which isn't as strong in our home market, is a huge kind of channel within the North American market we needed to adapt. And we also needed to, we even did a, we had to pivot around our branding and our packaging in the early stages of North America to make sure that we weren't just assuming.

that what had worked in Australia would work. And so we went and did a branding update. So there was, it's been a journey, a journey of discovery, a journey of reflection. We need to look at ourselves and are we doing the best we can by the opportunities we have. And one strength we have as a business and the background we have as entrepreneurs and have been family and self-founded.

is our agility and our ability to pivot when we see something that either isn't working or could be better or an opportunity that we want to simply just take hold of.

Ramon Vela (25:55.117)
And, you know, like the COVID, for instance, has been something that no one could plan for, right? You just have to, it really tested your perseverance and resilience in this, your, like you just said, your ability to adapt and pivot. And it did so for so many people. How about things now like the tariffs? Have the tariffs had an impact in the business?

Clive Sher (26:20.229)
Yeah, I mean the one thing you learn after 20 years of running your own business and we did it at the start of the core I'm on is to breathe, to stop and breathe. The tariffs have had a big impact in our business and they are having a big impact and I think the biggest issue of the challenge and issue of the tariffs is twofold. One is us wanting to limit any impact to the accessibility of our products. You know, we, as I mentioned before, we're...

extremely focused on making sure that our products are available and affordable in a mainstream sense. And that's critical for us. And the second challenge has really been around the uncertainty because tariffs were announced and then pause or we're uncertain. And we didn't really want to go to market with a price adjustment until we knew where tariffs stood.

And then we wanted to be extremely transparent around the impact that tariffs have. So we wanted to make sure that we weren't, it was obvious to our incredibly important retail partners and hopefully, know, consumers will understand that we're only increasing where we need to, not no more and the impact is limited. So it's challenging, but I wouldn't call it.

deal-breaking scenario. As you go through this business, there's many fires you put out running your own business and we just have to carry on and do the best we can. We can't do more.

Ramon Vela (27:57.548)
Yeah, yeah.

No, I definitely understand that. Unfortunately, it is what it is. So we'll talk about the products in a second. I just have a couple of more questions in terms of the business. there's so much. We talked about it a second ago, but there's so many things going on in this space, so many products, lots for people to take in.

And so in this space, think the space you're in is also, it's an exciting area to be in too. So there's so much going on for the consumer. From your perspective, like how do you break through that noise? Like what do you think, you know, maybe this is too early, maybe I should have asked you this question later, but I'm really curious because how do you break through that noise? Like what do you, what, what?

What are you hoping, like from this interview, what are you hoping that the listener gets about why, you know, Little Bellies is the product for their child, for this loved one that they care so much about?

Clive Sher (29:11.277)
Yeah, it's a great question Ramon and it's I wish I had a one line answer for you. So I apologize if I take too long in responding to that. You know, as I mentioned before, we're a brand that's hyper focused about being around the parent and young children on their journey as they navigate. And for us, when you look at our brand and we'll go into, know, I don't, probably won't talk about too many specific products.

Ramon Vela (29:18.069)
I'm just gonna...

Clive Sher (29:40.543)
because at our global portfolio in our products, in Australia we have around 50 products on shelf. If you walk into any major supermarket, there's five or six shelves dedicated to the brand. In North America, we've got a smaller segmentation, but a growing assortment. So our brand is really focused not on one specific product, about having the tailored range for young children.

as they go into each age and stage so they can experience and develop. And so for example, you know, we have a very cleared out age and stage architecture. The core to that within our baby and toddler segment is our seven month, our 10 month and our 12 month toddler assortment. And each age and stage has a kind of, I wouldn't say objective, but separate set of criteria.

which reflects the age and stage of that child. So when we talk about why parents, you know, love little bellies, it's because we are the, you know, we're a brand that really wants to simplify the journey for parents. And you look at a a parent who's maybe got their first child, hasn't navigated this journey before, they come into the category. And particularly in North America, what we've seen is brands take

be quite ambiguous as to when the product is suitable for their child. They'll have suitable for sitters or crawlers or some arbitrary kind of segmentation that doesn't really reflect every child. Some children may take longer to crawl, but it doesn't mean that they can't manage a certain type of food product. So I think the journey that parents go on through

through the category, you're coming into it when you're tired, you're stressed, you're worried about doing the right thing for your child. I mentioned earlier about the guilt that's associated with shopping the category. The insights we have and we hear constantly from consumers is that they're aware that homemade is best and knowing exactly, putting fresh homemade food in front of your child every day is the best.

Clive Sher (32:07.005)
And, but that's not realistic or practical. And so parents then have to shop the category and very often they're buying products that sometimes are older than the child itself that they're buying for. And then there's the concept of navigating labels and health washing that we spoke about. And we still see a huge amount of what we term pseudo-confectionary in the category that should never be there. So it's a really complicated world that's highly stressful, guilt-ridden.

And for young parents navigating the category, it can be very confusing. And so as a brand, we want to be the brand that partners on that journey, that simplifies the journey, that has very strict brand guidelines so that you'll never pick up a pack and go, wow, that's terrible. Why are they offering that for children? Every product is curated in a way that's safe, that's suitable, that's best in class from a health perspective.

which allows a parent, you know, it's very age and stage articulated. So you have your seven month or tasty text journey, your 10 month or more to explore, your 12 month, your toddlers and training assortment. And so, you know, they can grow with the brand and the children can grow with the brand and feel comfortable that each product within the age and stage assortment has been curated to be appropriate and suitable, you know, as the child grows.

Ramon Vela (33:33.293)
You know my first my initial reaction to what you just said was or is that it sounds

It's there's a well, there's a couple of things going on here from my perspective. One is that it's incredibly considerate of the parents because the parent has so many other things going on in their lives and so forth. And you're right. Home cooking is always the best. You being able to know what you're putting in the meal is always best. Well, let's face it. Parents, especially if they have multiple children or if they they're obviously they're probably two working parents. It's hard to always

you know, get the right food in front of the child from like making it themselves. So they're always looking, I think, or on the lookout for a good snack, a good food that they can trust, that they believe in, that is also easy to understand and easy to utilize. And I think, you know, little bellies sounds like that's the product that parents would be looking for.

And second, I don't know who came up with this, what did you call it? The age of stage architecture. I don't know who came up with it, but it actually sounds very engineering-like. Like it sounds very step-by-step. And I like it though. I thought I put it down, or a joke, but I actually like it because one, like I said, it's considerate to people because you understand how to apply it. It's like, I see lot of health supplement brands and lot of

of skincare brands that when I see them and I learn about them, I still don't know like how do I use them? When do I use them? Like when to apply them? What's the process? And it sounds like what you're doing here is that you've taken care of that so that people can look at their age and the stage of the child and say, okay, these snacks or these foods meet that stage and it's very simple. And then also,

Ramon Vela (35:42.252)
So if it sounds like based on the organic and the wholesome and the health and so forth, it's something they can trust. So that's my perception of what you just said. Is that right on the mark?

Clive Sher (35:56.325)
Yeah, it is on the market, I suppose. The agent stage is a concept, I would love to say, we developed and no one else has done, but it is something we've seen in other markets. as we developed our range, we constantly analyzed not just the Australian market, not just the North American market, we analyzed a lot of international markets. And we appreciate we don't know everything and we want to learn.

from others that are doing things well and also learn from others that aren't doing things well so that we don't repeat mistakes. So it's, you know, we have very carefully curated the range. It's been an evolution over many, many years to create the range. know, if I think of the very first products we introduced, you know, and then how the range evolved from there, you know, it's part of the risk when you're starting a business and the evolution you go through to introduce products.

you know, figure out what's working, figure out what's not. And because we're quite, I don't want to use the term aggressive, but quite innovation forward, you know, constantly launching many new items every year, we have a very strong pipeline and innovation funnel that we understand that not everything's going to work. But for us, it's part of that learning curve. You we've recently in Australia, as an example, launched a new segment called Fussy Foodies.

Now that, is for 18 months. Now that, that is born out of a need we've seen from a lot of children that develop fussy eating syndromes as they get into toddlerhood and they get focused on a certain style of product. And we wanted to make sure that we are providing products that, that kind of try help parents introduce products to deal with that. So, you know, it's a brand new segment we've just launched and it's very early days and we're learning as we go.

Ramon Vela (37:33.046)
Mm-hmm.

Clive Sher (37:52.495)
But it's part of the journey that we're on is not everything's going to work, but we're going to try and we're going to innovate and we're going to be the brand that pushes that innovation benchmark within the category to continually test. We don't want to be a brand that follows the herd. We don't want to be the brand that doesn't add incrementality to the category. We are hyper-focused around being a brand that can add value.

and can offer something different. you know, lot, lot of the times the points of difference have worked and sometimes it hasn't, you know, and you've got to learn and pivot, as I've said before.

Ramon Vela (38:34.448)
Yeah, and the fussy eaters, I mean, I say it half jokingly, but I thought every 18 months old was a fussy eater. It seems like every one of my kids at some point didn't want to eat their food and eat pizza all day long, or I don't know what it was. Yeah, I know. But yeah, mean, it feels like that's just the very nature of a lot of kids.

Clive Sher (38:44.122)
Well,

Clive Sher (38:47.717)
Correct. Correct. Correct. Well, I don't think they're not even that young, but yes.

Ramon Vela (39:02.348)
So, okay, so let's talk a little bit about, we talked about the architecture and the age and stage and so forth, and we talked about the health, but let's dive a little bit inside. I know you said you have a lot of products, so let's talk more high-level philosophy, I guess, on recipes and things like that. What does it look like?

Clive Sher (39:28.717)
So, yeah, so it's easier for me to kind of take you through each agent stage and the purpose and that then dictates the products we launch under that agent stage. you know, we have a, I'll just talk at a higher level brand philosophy first, if that's okay. And then I'll dive down into the products and agent stage philosophy. So our philosophy as a brand is do what's natural. And what it really means is that

Do What's Natural extends across everyone within our kind of ecosystem. And it means we as a company do what's natural is make wholesome age and stage appropriate baby and toddler foods. So parents can do what's natural, which is to support and nurture young children as they go through their journey. So children can do what's natural, which is play, learn, laugh, love, and experience. And really,

By us providing the best quality food parents can trust, parents can then relax and enjoy the moment and their journey with their children, which really allows them to not necessarily be an authoritative figure, rather to be a part of what we like to call a partner in crime and enjoy the journey. really joy and being part of the journey is a big part of what we do.

You know, when we were growing up, Ramon, and I'm sure the same is with you, your parents would say to you, don't play with your food, stop playing with your food and just eat. Well, we take a different approach. We want children to play with their food because the benefits of young children interacting with food, being hands on with food, trying different flavors and different textures and experiences is part of their development process. And so we actually encourage the opposite. And our products are designed in that.

So when you look at things like our seven month segment, our tasty textures assortment, this is really a first stage of snacking for young children. And children at this age, you know, have a very gross motor skill in a hand to mouth coordination. They can grip a bigger piece within the palm of their hand. They can bring it to their mouth. Children at this age are coming off things like

Clive Sher (41:47.737)
breast milk formula, rice cereal, their palates are incredibly sensitive. Any kind of flavor is new for them. And so we really want to be very careful on how we curate the range to not overwhelm their palates. Once you've had a lot of sugar, a lot of salt, a lot of flavor, it sets a benchmark. And we certainly don't want to be doing that for young children. So the products at Seven Months are almost all singular flavors.

but one product, one of those. But it's things like strawberry pick up, our pick me sticks or our blueberry puffs or our sweet corn roundabouts rings. They're all made from organic maize or corn, which allows them to be very soft. You know, as you eat them, they dissolve in the mouth. So it's easy for a young child. They're bigger shaped so the young child can hold in their palm and they can self feed.

where it's gonna dissolve and be safe for them to eat. And then the flavors are all very light. You might try them and go, I don't get much flavor. But for a young child that doesn't have that history of intense flavors, it really allows them to appreciate the singular flavors of each, a strawberry, a blueberry, a sweet corn, a sweet potato. And we use, all we're using, we don't use any added flavors, not even a natural flavor. And while there's nothing inherently wrong with a natural flavor,

the flavor intensity is what we want to avoid. So we only use added, you know, whole fruit, fruit and vegetable powders in this assortment, never added sugar, never added salt, never added flavors. And it really just allows us to nurture a young child's palate by singular flavor introduction, bigger shapes for them to hold and introduce. You then move into the next stage, which is our more to explore assortment, which is suitable from 10 months onwards.

At this age, a young child can pick up smaller pieces between their thumb and their forefinger. It's called the pincer grasp. And that's really the first attempt at fine motor skills and learning and developing. And so we create a range of shapes that encourage them to utilize that skill and to develop it. Irregular shapes like our soft corn range, or we have our pause range, which is a paw shaped.

Clive Sher (44:17.765)
tough and allows the young child to independently pick up. We have a lot of them are corn or maize based organic non-GMO, but we do start to introduce other grains to change the texture of the base, but still melt in the mouth so the young child can evolve through textural differences. And then the flavors become more evolved. So we now start to combine spices,

fruit, vegetables, so things like our carrot and cinnamon pores or our apple and berry soft corn or our mango and yogurt picnic sticks. All of these are done in a way that introduce a variation in texture, variation in shape and variation in flavors. But still, we never add flavors, not even a natural flavor, never add sugar, never add salt. It's really about evolving the palate.

before they then get to a toddler range, which is toddlers in training, where now the children are able to work with a much broader range of products. And so then we start to introduce our animal crackers, for example, which are made from 50 % whole grain flour, only sweetened with grape juice concentrate, no added sugar, no added salt. It's a soft eating whole grain cookie. Or we have our...

fruit bars that are made from entirely dried fruits and whole grain oats. Again, no added flavors, no added cane sugar, no added, you know, and we only, we start to add maybe a little bit of salt for flavor, but still very low in terms of context of adult snacks. As we nurture young pellet, we have our soft corn range from 10 months evolves and we start to do things like a sweet and salty soft corn, but that is made with

juice concentrate, not cane sugar, and a very, very mild flavor, and a touch of salt, just to kind of evolve and start to migrate them into older children's snacks. And so, you know, the assortment is very broad, and without taking you through every product, it's really that concept of evolving shape, format, flavor, as the child grows, to be suitable and to keep them on a journey that still offers best-in-class health while...

Clive Sher (46:43.41)
before they fall off that cliff of going into mainstreams now.

Ramon Vela (46:47.755)
Well, have to say that what you just described, think is amazing. And I say that because, I mean, you know, we've done 1330 plus shows or whatever at this point. I think you're the first person I've ever.

had it explained it the way you did and have it structured and so thoughtful. Like I said, early on, I didn't realize how thoughtful it was, but how thoughtful this whole, I don't know what you call it, stage architecture, whatever it is, how thoughtful it is. mean, even to the point where you're thinking about motor skills and the different shapes and things like that, honestly, any parent out there who's listening who isn't impressed by what they just heard, I would just be very surprised if they're not impressed by what they heard.

I'm a parent, but my kids are much older, but now I just, I'm impressed. I'm like, wow. It's like, I wish I knew that happened when my kids were.

Clive Sher (47:49.173)
I really appreciate that. as I said to you earlier, I've listened to a number of your episodes and so it really is, I truly appreciate your thoughts on that. That's very

Ramon Vela (47:59.808)
Well, and I know you said you didn't come up with this whole stage of architecture, but.

I think you guys have really have owned it and from my perspective because I have not heard anyone kind of go through this description the way that you have so kudos to you guys. It's hugely impressive and I'm just still I'm blown away like I feel like like I I think this is exciting. I think I think every parent should take a look at this. So wow.

So let's make sure that the people know where to go or actually let me just let's make sure that people know where to go. So the website is littlebellies.com.

And so I have the website up right now, as you can see, Clive, is there anything, like let's say someone just heard you speak and said, and loved everything you just said about the different stages and why you have the different stages and what's in the different stages and what's some of the things that go into those stages and why you do what you do.

They're on the website now. So they are excited. They love what they heard. They have a little one. They want to provide them this kind of food. Where do want them to start? Is there any place for them to start? Obviously, they should go to their range, right? They should go to their phase.

Clive Sher (49:28.537)
Yeah, I mean it depends on the age and stage of their children. You know, we want parents to be with us from the first age and stage and migrate as they go through and feel confident in what they're buying and trusting the brand. I mean, you can see the one thing when you're looking at the screen and looking at the web page, you'll notice that the logo changes. And that's because the logo changes based on the age and stage. We've got the smaller character for babies for less than 12 months. We've got the middle character for toddlers. And then we have the older.

character for as the children goes, because we've started in our home markets looking at older children products as well. And so, you know, that really signifies how the brand is meant to grow with families and their children. And so I think, you know, explore the range, find products that are suitable for your children. There we go. You can see we actually do some younger in Australia, some younger purees, but we haven't launched those in North America yet. So seven, 10 and 12 months are really where we

where we exist. And, you know, it's about being just present. The one thing that I'll just say is, you know, I think I think one further point that really I feel makes us stand out about this assortment is, you know, it's probably not as relevant in most other categories. But in this category where we have such a sensitive consumer,

To me, there's a really strong choice most brands have to make in the category. And that's between brand integrity and product opportunity. Because it's very easy to find products that children will enjoy, but you need to be cognizant of what's in the product and obviously coming back to that pseudo-confectionary challenge which we have. And so as a brand, we've chosen to adopt very strict brand guidelines, very strict

criteria for each age and range around what we will and won't allow. And that comes back to not adding flavors, not adding sugar, not adding salt, being organic and so forth. And into what each product signifies. Whereas, and the very many products we've come across, or we've even had retailers ask us to potentially develop for their category. And we've said, thank you, but no, because it doesn't meet our brand guidelines and it's not what we, where we want to be.

Clive Sher (51:49.925)
And so as a range, it's really important. I think one of the things you mentioned previously in our pre-call was around what is one thing you want parents to know about the brand if that's not evident on packaging. And I think it's really the commitment we have to brand integrity, to brand guidelines, to how much

time and effort we put into making sure every product meets those brand guidelines and is safe and suitable. And that's something very hard to sometimes come across on PAP when you have, as we spoke about earlier, so much health washing.

Ramon Vela (52:33.225)
Mm-hmm. And, you know, I'm still sort of getting over...

your description of the different stages a second ago because I was just so impressed by that. And one thing I didn't realize, I mean, I know it intellectually now that you said it, but you don't really think about it in that, the sense that as you've gotten older and so forth, you've tried all sorts of different products. You've had sugar, you've had all sorts of other stuff. Unfortunately, I have already had junk food and things like that. In all these things, they taint, guess, or like,

you get used to these tastes, but it's not the same with young kids, right? So you don't want to necessarily have the same flavors or anything like that for children. And I know that, again, I know that intellectually, but it's not something I think about it, but I'm glad you're thinking about it because I wouldn't want to feed my child if I had a little child, I wouldn't want to feed them the kind of sugars that you're talking about, or even like you said, the natural flavors and so forth. It's like, I'm glad that...

that you're thinking about it. Because now that you've explained it, it makes a lot of sense to me. And as a parent, it makes a lot of sense to me. But that's not something I would have just naturally thought of. I would not when I would have been looking through different products. That's not something I would have naturally thought of. So I think it's a little thing to me that really impresses me as well.

Clive Sher (53:56.303)
Yeah.

Clive Sher (53:59.877)
I think, I think, Ramon, just to that point, I think one of the, we wouldn't call it a grievance, but one of the challenges we find with the category is that, know, a parent coming into the category that wants to shock the category has the right to feel like everything in the category is suitable and safe for young children. But because of the prevalence of pseudo-confectionary and, you know, very often,

We don't feel that's the case. There many products in the category we would never do under our brand. We just don't feel it's right. It shouldn't exist. And it's introducing products that are incredibly sweet, incredibly flavored at such a young age. When parents tell us that they're children, oh, my child used to buy little bellies, but now they're used to eating A, B, and C. And now the flavors are too light for them.

That's a testament that we're the right thing because we're not being the brand that's exposing them. We have a strong belief that a lot of the challenges that we're seeing among kid children today, the obesity epidemic is really driven around a lot of the foods they consume and are introduced at a very young age.

Clive Sher (55:21.765)
Children are exposed to incredibly sweet and salty and flavored products at a very young age. That becomes what they expect and very hard to get them to adopt a healthier lifestyle. So we really care incredibly much about the curation and the journey and just allowing the palate to develop slowly and appreciate flavors of vegetable, fruits.

Even the idea of being able to be exposed to a number of different flavors helps children increase their vocabulary. It helps them increase so many different aspects of their life when they, you know, they're not just exposed to one singular flavor. And that's what also drives that fussy eating syndrome when they don't have that variety. That's the reason for the breadth of our range and the desire to be all encompassing in terms of what we can provide.

Ramon Vela (56:16.66)
Wow. Like I said, I'm very impressed by that. And I think you're right. I mean, I think that does probably play a big part in terms of the childhood obesity.

It's very difficult to, once you started having those flavors and that pseudo-confectionary flavors and things like that, you mentioned, it's really difficult to go back and it's really difficult to kind of change it. Even for adults, I know, and this is kind of silly, but I never used to love vegetables. I hated vegetables. so the taste of vegetables,

Clive Sher (56:43.865)
Very hot.

Ramon Vela (56:59.636)
just like I had to like put all sorts of stuff on it just to make them taste good because I didn't like the taste of the vegetables and I didn't like so I would have to put a bunch of junk on on the vegetables in order to eat them.

But I made a commitment to eating better. And so now I eat vegetables all the time. a lot of times I don't even have any. Now I love the taste of vegetables. Now there's, I have like favorites in there, but it took me a while for my taste buds to kind of reacclimate or whatever you want to call that process, but it took a while. So it's just incredibly important. I think for parents to do things in that you...

that you introduced in this architecture. So anyhow, I'm just like really impressed by that. And I just think it's a good way for people to do it. I kind of wish the architecture went up until adulthood, you know, right? So maybe encourage people to eat better in different ways. But this is fantastic, man. I want to be respectful of your time. We've talked about it so much. And I just love it. And thank you. I really appreciate your time. So a couple additions.

last questions one is where do want people to go where do want people to go in terms of like to buy I know that you mentioned

Clive Sher (58:18.565)
Yes, so we don't sell directly from our own website, but we have links to our website to a number of the retail partners. Our products are sold widely through Walmart, through Target, through Amazon, through you know we've had a huge increase in the number of supermarket channels like you know Publix, Kroger, Albertsons, you know and many others.

HED so you know we really have pretty good presence at the moment through the North American market and if your local retailer doesn't have it ask them to get it in, it's always a great option.

Ramon Vela (58:58.282)
That was good. That's good to know. Okay. And then last is I know you've already gave so much great information, but if there's anything last words you want to leave for the audience, now's a great time.

Clive Sher (59:15.333)
No, I don't think there is. think we are just delighted with the way our brand has evolved in the North American market, the acceptance, the engagement we're seeing. Coming back to the appreciation question, we feel very fortunate to be where we are and to have our home-based Australia and New Zealand continue to perform well and now have the North American market both

not just in the USA, but in Canada as well. We're across almost all the major retailers in Canada and widely available. so to see consumers adopt our philosophy and adopt the products is really a huge thing for us as a family-owned business and family-founded. To see us impacting that many young families is really inspirational and

It's hard to really realize how far we've come in that journey, but it's lots more to come and we're excited to continue that journey and to expand the formats and the products and just be that partner along the way.

Ramon Vela (01:00:33.322)
Well, I appreciate that. You know, one last thing that I forgot to ask you about was, so you've talked about your longevity and you've been around for 20 years and we've talked about this really great structure that you have and the products and the ingredients and all of that. Where is there a lot to go? Like, where? I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of places to go, but I'm just saying, what's the future look like to you?

Clive Sher (01:01:02.149)
I'm a strong believer in not planning too far ahead because what you want today, you think you want in 20 years isn't going to be what you want. So I'm not a strong believer in, you know, things change or priorities change as a person. So we really focus primarily on the short to medium term. We're very passionate about this business, very passionate about what we're doing. We think there's lots of opportunity for us to continue adding value and being part of that journey.

think we've only just started. watch the space, I suppose. It's really about how much more can we do and we would love to be partners with parents as even the children grow into older age and stage as well. yeah, don't really have more than that.

Ramon Vela (01:01:50.251)
Okay, well no, I appreciate it and and I really appreciate you spending time with us and kind of sharing everything about little galleries and why you do what you do and this has been great. Like I said, I'm just very impressed by the comments you've been and the things you've explained. So thank you, Clive. I really appreciate you making time for us.

Clive Sher (01:02:09.187)
Thank you Ramon, appreciate your time and appreciate the opportunity.

Ramon Vela (01:02:12.81)
So everyone out there, we had just had Clive Scherr, who is president and co-founder of Little Bellies.

Hopefully you've enjoyed this conversation. I have to just say, I mentioned it earlier, but I've covered a lot of brands and brands even in this space and everyone has, I think, a lot of value to what they provide. But I'm going to tell you that I've never heard some of the things that I heard today from other brands. And I just am so impressed by just the thoughtful nature of their strategy, their plan and how they provide these products to parents and to their children.

I'm just blown away. mean, just the section about him breaking down the whole architecture, the phases and so forth, and what's in them and just thinking about the things he mentioned, things that I had never thought about, even like in terms of the food shapes and things like that, and the no sugar and natural flavors and all that other stuff. It just shows you that Clive and his team,

really care about what they're putting into these products and really care about their consumer because why would they put so much time and effort into this? And to me, they're doing it at a level that I don't really see often. So that's my initial reaction. And so I would definitely encourage you to go visit them. They're definitely a product worth buying, brand we're supporting. And I feel like I want to go out and buy some even

though don't have little kids, but it's just so exciting. just love it. So go check it out. Littlebellies.com is the website. And as he mentioned, there's links to where you can buy it. And I'm sure you can go to Walmart and Target and all these other places. So go check it out. And one last thing, you will have these links on our podcast description, which you can find at Apple and Spotify and pretty much anywhere you listen to podcasts.

Ramon Vela (01:04:15.788)
in the story of a brand show, you should be able to find it. Beyond that, I always say stay sane, stay safe, stay healthy. And one way of doing that is by eating little bellies or giving little bellies to your children, because I think you'll really, really enjoy it. And go check it out. Like I said, sign up for the newsletter. That way you stay up to date on all the new products and things that they're coming out with. So probably the best move you can do. Beyond that, everyone, thank you. Oh, actually, one last thing. We've all been going through a lot of stuff. We've all been going through pandemic stuff. We've all been economic.

politics, geopolitical wars, everything. Let's do ourselves a favor. Let's just remember that everyone is going through something and let's just be a little kinder to each other. And I know if we do this, we can make this human experience a little better. Beyond that, everyone, thank you from the bottom of my heart for listening to another episode of the story of a brand.