Untoxicated - The Truth About “Safe” Skincare Labels

Ramon Vela (00:19.694)
Welcome back everyone. This is Ramon Vela and I have an amazing brand that has sent me products and I can really, I don't know if you guys can see that, but we'll talk all about the product in a second, but I can't wait to dive in. She sounds amazing and I want to know everything about her and the brand and why she does what she does and of course everything about the product. So please welcome.

Annie Meyer, who is the co-founder and COO of Untoxicated. Welcome to the show.

Annie (00:54.63)
Thank you. Thanks for having me Ramon. I know I mentioned this offline. I'm a huge fan of this podcast. So means a lot to be sitting on the other side. I appreciate it.

Ramon Vela (01:02.786)
Wow, no, thank you. I appreciate your kind words. And really, to be really honest is this show is what it is, not because of me, but because of people like you. People who are out there building brands, fighting the good fight. This is a difficult endeavor. I always tell people that you bleed sweat and tear over bringing a product to market. Most people don't realize how difficult it is to do that.

And so really this show is all about people like you. So thank you for being on the show. and, actually a really good, this is a good segue because my first question before we get into the brand, before we get into any of that, I like to make sure that, two things. One is I asked my opening question is always one of gratitude because I think it's a great way to sort of start the topic of your journey with the brand and, and why you guys do what you do.

But also, I also want people to know that there's real people behind the brands that we do business with. Because when people see your products online, or on the shelf, and not just yours, any, it's so easy to look at that and say, it's a faceless corporation, who cares, this or that. Now, with companies, especially ones like yours, there's real people.

who care deeply about the product, care deeply about their customers, their employees, their communities, et cetera. And I like to highlight that. So I like to always humanize this process as much as possible. And a great way of humanizing this process is by understanding who I'm speaking to and understanding what they're grateful for. So with that said, Annie, if you don't mind, can you share a moment or memory when someone did something for you that just made you feel grateful?

because it meant that they believed in you, your vision, or your potential.

Annie (03:01.106)
Absolutely, and I would say it's actually our first investor But it's probably not for the reason you might think initially although it was wonderful to get that vote of confidence in its own right But it's actually about how they approach the opportunity and so you know to be quick about it I'd send out an email to you know close friends and family just saying hey Here's the thing that I'm working on we may need your support whatever that looks like moving ahead whether

you know someone or you have this skill or we're seeking capital. And I'm not even kidding. I get a phone call that night and I get it from a close friend. He and her husband are both investment bankers in New York City with kids. So they're wildly busy and I'm in my head thinking, my gosh, is everything okay? And I pick up the phone and it's both of them, which I didn't know is still a thing you could do in a day of like mobile technology. And they literally said to me, we're in. They didn't ask me any questions about

the terms, didn't ask me who's on our cap table, they didn't ask me 30 questions about the business, they were just in. And I had never in my life felt this level of absolute belief before, much less from two people that I respect the hell out of, personally and professionally, just to look to me and say, we will follow you where you're going.

That is so impactful or has been so impactful for me, not just in that moment, but I know you've built a business Ramon, I know you've spoken with thousands of founders. I think you know this fundamentally that a lot of days, the only thing that you have is your own sense of worth and conviction behind what you're building. And I'll be the first to say that like I have imposter syndrome and a lot of my life I spent achieving and I've been fortunate to be affiliated with a lot of great institutions.

But when you become an entrepreneur, all that gets stripped away. And it starts to kind of, I think for me, swirl some of these questions around who are you? What is your value? And so to have someone raise their hand and say, none of those things are present, but you have cultivated just an impression in our minds that is so valuable and useful that will follow you there, is something that is kind of not only stuck with me, but been a bit of armor for the last few years. So I'm endlessly grateful for that.

Ramon Vela (05:23.116)
Wow. And that really does go to the heart of the question in that it was something that they saw in you that sometimes we don't see in ourselves and or we need to be reminded about ourselves. And that actually, I always tell people that from an investment standpoint, it is true obviously that you need to have a good business plan. You need to have a good idea. You need to have a viable idea and all of that. And then all of that, of course, is necessary.

But when you bring it down to the, like it's the most basic level, it is really an investment in that particular, know, entrepreneur's personality. Like they are betting that you, you and Andy, exactly, that you're gonna be able to do it. But you know, regardless of that, you're right. mean,

Annie (06:10.86)
be the one to ride the horse. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Ramon Vela (06:19.886)
Entrepreneurship is like a roller coaster ride. And there are some people I've met very, very few who never ever have imposter syndrome. Like maybe one out of the thousand or so people I've interviewed, maybe one. Yeah. And it's, really his story was very unique. but, but everyone has it. I mean, people who run a hundred million, 200 million, $300 million companies, they've told me that they have some moments of doubt.

Annie (06:32.976)
Wouldn't that be nice?

Ramon Vela (06:49.856)
in their ability to do what they're doing. And the other thing that I really love about what you have is that you have this really great resource now that you can go back to and think about. it works two ways too, because not only does it pump you up and give you that confidence, but it also kind of like adds a little bit of that push and like, you know, I really better make this thing work because they believe in me. So it kind of pushes you in a couple of different directions, but yeah.

Annie (07:16.037)
Absolutely.

Ramon Vela (07:19.214)
I often think that when people provide that kind word to you when you need it, it's like a transfer of belief. Like sometimes we need someone to remind us like, hey, you know what, you can do this, right? And it happens in small and different ways. mean, whether you were playing softball when you're a kid or soccer or whatever, and your coach says, hey, you can make that goal or whatever, it's like a...

It's just a transfer of belief. It's like, Hey, you can do this. And sometimes they come in those moments where you need it the most. And so I think, I think this is a great example. So thanks for sharing that.

Annie (07:58.044)
Of of course.

Ramon Vela (07:59.928)
So this is a good segue into, let's start from, let's start a little bit from the beginning. So like from where you were a second ago, when we were talking about your first investor, what was it that, you know, what was it that they saw in you, whether from an idea standpoint or from your background, what was it that they saw? So we, know they saw something.

And if you were to, and obviously you can't get into their heads, but I'm sure they've talked to you about it. Yeah. But you must have some idea, like the idea, the passion, all of these things are combined. What was the idea that they, that you found so compelling that brought out this energy in you, this passion in you that they saw then and they wanted to invest. So what was that idea? What, what was the motivating factor?

Annie (08:30.642)
was going to say, do I have a phone a friend lifeline on this one? Yeah. Yeah.

Annie (08:55.09)
Yeah, um, intoxicated is the first, what we see is kind of allergen free or non allergenic skincare brand. So we're free from the ingredients that trigger over kind of 99 % of negative skin reactions, irritation, eczema flares, anything like that. And what really brought me to intoxicated is two things. One is my background is in consumer. So that might be one of the things that they saw in terms of

you know, having spent a few decades really working across the growth curve. I've had the privilege of leading some brands that you almost certainly have in your pantry, if not your vanity right now, all the way to starting to work in some of these scrappier startups. A lot of that has been within beauty and personal care. So quite a bit of passion and love for the category. I love that it's one of those categories where it has to perform, right? Has to deliver efficacy, but it also, when done well, has this emotional component to it, right? It's not just.

you know, a Tom Ford lipstick is a beautiful color red, but how does it make you feel? And why are you paying for it? And so I just, have this passion and love for it. And that was kind of my professional journey. But then concurrent with that was my personal journey and very fortuitously. And perhaps after decades of trying and experimenting and putting all kinds of things on my skin, I started to experience skin sensitivity for the first time. And

It was not immediately obvious where it was coming from, what was triggering it. I now understand probably to a painful degree kind of why, but at the time I'm sitting here and I'm saying I'm a very curious, empowered person in terms of, you when I want to figure something out, feel like I have the resources, I'm going to be a dog on a bone to get it. And I've worked in the industry for decades and I can't find a lot of the information I need. And I certainly have not been able to find a solution that's been able to

And very fortuitously, while this was happening, mutual friend connected me with my now co-founder, Dr. Martin Smith. He's a double board certified allergist and immunologist. was practicing out of the Cleveland Clinic. But my friend had said, Annie, I know you love brand building. He didn't know I was dealing with all of my other personal stuff, but I you love brand building. This guy's doing something really interesting. You should talk to him. And ironically, what Martin was building was intoxicated.

Ramon Vela (11:04.91)
Thank

Ramon Vela (11:13.538)
Hmm.

Annie (11:13.65)
So what he was seeing was my pain point over and over again. He had patients coming in to see him at the Cleveland Clinic. And if you're not familiar with the Cleveland Clinic, it's one of the top academic kind of institutions from a medical standpoint in the country, if not the world. So he's oftentimes not the first person that people are going to see, right? They're seeing multiple derms or allergists or primary care physicians. And these patients are coming in more and more frequently and saying,

Ramon Vela (11:23.533)
Mm-hmm.

Ramon Vela (11:31.84)
Mm-hmm.

Annie (11:40.412)
I don't get it, I'm using the things that my doctor's telling me to use and my skin is oftentimes not getting better and it's often getting worse. And as Martin started to turn around those products, he saw that while a lot of them are not like putting a St. Ives scrub on your face, which is not great for you in a lot of regards, they still contain a lot of ingredients, especially if you have sensitive skin, that can really continue to inflame and irritate and really undermine the health of your skin.

And so he basically applied his medical background and his chemistry background preceding that to spend several years starting really kind of tinkering and developing these first of its kind products to address that sensitive skin issue that again super fortuitously I had been dealing with at the same time.

Ramon Vela (12:25.388)
Well, and as a brand builder, you're able to bring in, I'm assuming, a more structured approach to, I he's focused on the product, right, on the ingredients of the recipe and the formulations and things like that. And you can bring in a more experienced and structured approach to building a brand. And where was it that you

Had that validation that, okay, this is a great idea. Because obviously by the time someone meets him, it kind of narrows down the funnel, right? Like they start someplace and maybe they get help here, but then they have worse and worse or they're not getting any better. They end up going to him as a specialist and so forth. But did you have any validation as to, you know what? There's a lot more people.

suffering with this than I thought. Did you have that moment at any point or during this process?

Annie (13:24.186)
a real need. Sure. Yeah.

Annie (13:30.62)
I did, and so you hit on two things there. One, I think oftentimes, I certainly thought of entrepreneurs as these big ideas people, and that's really what makes the ideal founder. The reality is, it's one thing to have an idea, it's another thing to make it a reality and action it and bring it to life. And that's really where my skill set comes in. And so when people will come to me and say, but I'm not the big picture.

Could I be a founder? Could I start my thing? I think there's absolutely a place and a role to create structure to be able to make this big idea, pull it out of the air and make it a reality. And so in that regard, our skill sets are very complimentary just in terms of our training, our disciplines, the way we approach the world, which has been, I think, a great growth experience for each of us. But as it relates to just validation on the idea, so I had had the good fortune of helping to lead the Vaseline Global Skincare Team in a past life.

And so was actually very familiar, not necessarily with the sensitive skincare category specifically, but within kind of what we would call mass clinical skincare. So skincare in a Target or an Ulta where there's some type of medical endorsement around it being safe and effective for your skin. And usually that's dermatologists. So I had been around that category for a while and I'd seen the trends and I knew that the trends were such that sensitive skin has been growing really rapidly.

And so to make that concrete, two decades ago, five-ish out of 10 people identified as having sensitive skin. Today, it's more like 7%. So it's over 70%, excuse me. So it's almost a 20 % jump in just two decades. And if we look at the generations beneath us, it's actually more like eight or eight and a half out of 10 people. So it's a massive problem. It's been around, but it's also been growing quickly and getting worse, just driven by really a number of

Ramon Vela (15:04.814)
Hmm.

Ramon Vela (15:16.782)
Hmm.

Annie (15:24.69)
whether it's, you know, oftentimes the environments we're in, I live in Chicago, you know, I'm not out in nature, there's quite a bit of pollution and other stuff, stressful lifestyles, the stuff we're putting in our bodies, knowing there's a connection between our gut and our skin, and the stuff we're putting on our bodies. The average woman puts over 500 chemicals, like in the US, on her skin every day. And so when you think about that, the kind of collective accumulation of that has been a pretty significant heightening.

Ramon Vela (15:40.418)
Mm-hmm.

Annie (15:53.102)
in this sensitivity to what our skin can kind of tolerate and handle.

Ramon Vela (15:57.804)
Wow. Hey, I'm going to pause for a second. Just pause. I'm hearing a little clicking at times. Not always, but I'm not sure what that is. Do you hear it on your end?

Ramon Vela (16:14.376)
I know when you move your headphones, I heard a little bit of clicking, I don't.

Annie (16:14.512)
It doesn't do like, does it sound like a.

Annie (16:20.338)
Could it be, maybe it could be an earring?

Ramon Vela (16:24.054)
It could be, it feels like there's something, hold on. I do hear it, yeah. Maybe it is, yeah. Yeah, it's your earring.

Annie (16:26.63)
Can hear that? Is that?

Annie (16:31.812)
Is that what it is? Okay, so then I'll take out my earring.

Ramon Vela (16:37.346)
Yeah, I wasn't sure what it was because I could hear it and I'm thinking, okay, I know you moved your I know you moved it.

Annie (16:43.74)
Yeah, no, it's not usually a problem, but yeah, no, all good. Better? Okay, good.

Ramon Vela (16:48.782)
All right, we should be good. yeah. Okay, so now let me count us back in. Pause, one, two, three.

So, yeah, mean, intuitively I know that a lot of people have these potential problems.

And so I figured that that was the case. I didn't realize it was so bad. I mean, because we're seeing we're seeing it in lots of different areas, you know, whether it's the gut health or whether it's other places where the foods that we eat, the air, the, you know, everything, even the packaging or plastics, whatever all this stuff is really just combining to really cause a lot of issues. And I'm wondering also, it feels like, and I've had a lot of skincare companies and no shade on any of them because everyone has their own

thing that they're doing but it just feels to me like this this is a this is a a great sort of differentiator you know for you guys as a brand because I don't think everyone is focused on this everyone is focused on like

this is for wrinkles or this is for anti-aging or this is for that or this or that. But what they're missing, I think in many cases is this growing trend, like you just mentioned, of people who having these sensitivity problems around skin. And I'm wondering, has that been a help in terms of how you've positioned the brand?

Annie (18:16.978)
Yeah, no, that's a great question. So the way we kind of talk about our brand is we're certainly focused on sensitive skin, but our products and even brands that touch on sensitive skin, it's usually not a brand that's positioning or identity is centered around it and usually be like, and we've got a range for sensitive skin and we just take out fragrance, right? Our approach, or we add aloe or colloidal oatmeal to like soothe the skin.

Ramon Vela (18:43.576)
Mm-hmm.

Annie (18:45.962)
has actually been less can be more. And so how do we take out all of the unnecessary or unwanted things and only leave in what your skin needs and has been scientifically proven and medically endorsed is safe and effective for skin, especially if you're irritated and inflamed. And so we have products that should be working for everyone, but making sure we're capturing that tail end that's highly sensitive. And the reality is that those

Ramon Vela (19:11.746)
Mm-hmm.

Annie (19:15.842)
Our products are really intended just to help create better skin health. So while we talk about sensitivity, you know, I've got sensitive skin, but I also have combo skin. I'm acne prone. I'm aging, right? I've got a lot of needs. many of us do. And so the way we like to talk about our products is that we're kind of the touchstone that you can use to make sure that you're maintaining the health of your skin so that you're better able to use some of these anti-aging products, right? Some of these other kind of

harsher treatment specific things, then if your skin isn't healthy or isn't in a good place, it won't even be able to tolerate those ingredients. So you won't even be able to get the benefit from them. So yeah, there are a few different ways we talk about our product and certainly there are the folks for whom they're so sensitive, eczema prone, contact dermatitis, rosacea, other things that they really can only use our products. But then there is a broader swath of the market.

for whom this would integrate with some of the other brands that you've spoken with as kind of that anchor or foundation for their routine.

Ramon Vela (20:22.784)
Hmm. Yeah. And that was actually, you answered a question that I had in my head right now is that how do you work with other brands? so in terms of another milestone, which is there's always a milestone that I, that entrepreneurs and founders tell me that where they, they, they have these validation points throughout the process of starting the brand. And sometimes it's the validation of like, Ooh, we got this, we finally got this, the, formulation,

way we want it or it finally works the way we want it and this or that. And, and then there's also the validation where you, can be a sale. It could be a retailer validating you by saying like, Ooh, we really want to carry your product. it could be something like that, but where you, guess that milestone to me is that it's always the way I describe it is, wow, this is.

This is really, this really can be a big business. what valid, what, milestone or when did you have that milestone around intoxicated?

Annie (21:29.638)
I think we've been fortunate to have a few, but there are two really quick ones that come to mind. The first is when we were getting ready to launch and market, we exist in a category where trust matters a lot, right? When you think about it, you're dealing with people that have pretty high risk for their skin if something's not working. It's not just, I don't like the texture. It's, could flare, I could have a rash, could have a reactionist send me to the doctor.

So that trust signaling is super important. And we wanted that to extend beyond just Martin's credentials. So we were reaching out to and working with a number of well-known certifications, if you will, within the category that consumers look to and trust as that kind of seal or stamp of approval. And one of the certifications, and actually the one we were most excited about getting, told us, we can't take your products for application right now.

because we're revamping our process. We realize that a number of brands and products are in here that shouldn't be. And it's an affiliation for sensitive skin. And so for us, that was a really validating moment to say, one of the biggest players, if not the biggest player from like a third party independent institution is simultaneously raising their hand and saying, what our standards were before is no longer sufficient for today.

So for us, that was like a huge, know, pat on the back moment in terms of we're onto something that people need and that is recognized as a problem beyond just the stats and numbers we've mentioned. And then the second one is within a few months of launching one of our items, it's our hydrating cream, we won the Women's Health Award for Best Moisturizer. It's not just, you these days there are so many categories. It's not just best moisturizer for $20 or less, or best moisturizer for...

full category bus moisturizer. And why that was so affirming is as a small brand, you rarely ever win those awards. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes around like affiliates and commission and awareness and a lot of these publications gain by associating themselves with these well-known brands or partners behind them. And so the fact that this like little dark horse, not an extensive product, one almost nobody had heard of, won the category outright.

Annie (23:54.318)
for us was yet again an affirmation, not specifically on the sensitive skin front, but that even if we remove ourselves from it, we're creating wonderful products. And that's our goal, right? Not to create products that people with sensitive skin are using because it's the only thing they're able to use, but that they enjoy using, right? And that it's a pleasurable experience that not only delivers functionally, but emotionally as well. So I'd say those are two that come to mind.

Ramon Vela (24:05.646)
you

Ramon Vela (24:13.027)
Hmm.

Ramon Vela (24:19.948)
Yeah. I love those. And it's really is impressive what you said in terms of that certification or that the organization, you know, and correct me if I'm wrong, basically, just so the audience knows this too, or emphasize this. They saw your, they looked at your product and they realized that your product is now the new standard.

And the standards that they had before maybe need to be readdressed because like based on based on what you're doing, this is, you know, they need to rethink their standards, which is, mean, am I correct? Did I understand that correctly?

Annie (25:06.758)
think you're aggrandizing us a little bit. They had shut down their program, recognizing the need to raise their standard. And while their program was shut down, which we had no idea about, we had come in with our product that effectively set the new standard for sensitivity. And so while there are a number of brands that are still a part of the program, that we would say are not.

Ramon Vela (25:08.942)
Thank

Ramon Vela (25:27.576)
Yeah.

Annie (25:34.928)
ideal for sensitive skin, I think we were really encouraged, the degree to which they were reaching out to us as thought partners and in other regards as they were revamping their program and looking to us as thought leaders, as an unknown brand, right, a medical doctor and a of a former beauty expert to help them orient around the standards for sensitive skin.

Ramon Vela (26:01.326)
All right. Well, it's still a big deal. I think it's a big deal. So let's talk a little. I want to make sure that we get to the products. But before we do that, let's talk a little bit about the, we talked just briefly about, you mentioned imposter syndrome and these are all things that entrepreneurs go through and, you know, people who build brands. I mean, this is a difficult endeavor. There's, you know,

Annie (26:03.761)
Yeah.

Ramon Vela (26:29.944)
People call it sometimes like the roller coaster, emotional roller coaster, because one day, one morning you could have a really great morning and things are going fantastic. By the afternoon, there's problems with manufacturing or something like that. It's just ups and downs and ups and downs. And for yourself, as you've gone through this, I'm sure that you've learned some lessons and or...

some insights. Would you mind sharing some of those? I mean, I know there's probably a ton, we can probably have a whole hour or two just talking about this, but you know, for those who are listening who might be at earlier stage than you, or sometimes I like to refer to it as that, you know, if Annie was talking to a younger Annie as she started this, what would you tell yourself? What insights or what potholes would you tell them to avoid?

Annie (27:23.378)
So I would always say just starting with the product that this may be evident, but it's amazing how many people I've spoken to that still seem to miss this. That if what you're building isn't met or isn't grounded in an unmet need or an insufficiently met need in an authentic and real way, nothing else matters. You can have the money, you can have the celebrity, you can probably push it for a period of time.

But to me, that's kind of like a fatter trend and those start to fade. And so you always need to be grounded in something that's not just, this is a good idea, but my question is, but is it something that people want and need? And so again, I can't reinforce that enough. And even sometimes we'll be sitting there and technically I'm part of our target audience, but I'm even having to kind of take a step back and say, I'm not representative of the whole, right? So like, how do we think around

Ramon Vela (28:04.728)
Hmm.

Ramon Vela (28:19.468)
Hmm.

Annie (28:22.268)
You how do we think about our audience and not just assume that we're the experts or we have the answers? I would say two is, you know, in early days, it's not enough to be well resourced. Again, even if you are, that helps. But I think a lot of it is, and in our case, it's been, how are we doing things in a different and in a better way? It is such a crowded category and space. How are you?

carving, it's, you again, if you've got a differentiated product that solves a real need, great. But from there, what are you doing to create a different path for yourself that's going to resonate with people more deeply and emotionally than what already exists? you know, we talk a lot about this is we don't, we don't have the money to outspend some of our competitors who are billion dollar businesses with, I'm sure, a hundred million dollar advertising budgets. So how do we outthink, outwork and out hustle?

How do we lean into agility and other things in a way that our competitors wouldn't be able to in order to get out in front of people and connect with them? And I could spend probably another podcast talking about our tactics there, but I think that's really critical too. And then I would say community is incredible and that's something that I would have advised myself to start to build sooner. Frankly, I had a bit of a false.

Ramon Vela (29:36.814)
Hmm.

Annie (29:49.766)
fallacy to say I've run across a few dozen organizations at this point brands are been affiliated with them from a consumer standpoint a lot of that skill sets helpful but more of it in the early days is not it's about creative problem-solving right and like fortitude a lot of these soft skills that You can't really train. It's a little bit trial by fire and doing but having that community

to say, you seeing this? How have you handled it? Just people that understand and relate at a bare minimum. And at a maximum could maybe be helpful in finding a solve, I think is just a critical way through. And something I would have leaned into more had I appreciated the degree to which my tangible skills around brand building wouldn't be as valuable in those early days. So I would say those are three things that come to mind.

Ramon Vela (30:38.136)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and that is, 100 % agree, especially with the last one, is that, you know, I think I've run into so many folks who lack the knowledge in whatever they're particularly doing, but the lack of knowledge isn't necessarily a barrier, but it's those soft skills that really matter a lot.

You know, uh, and it could be the difference between, you know, um, burning out. can be the difference between, you know, uh, making, uh, bad decisions because you know, you're, you're focusing on the wrong things. But if you have a sounding board too, it's one of the things that I always recommend because when I had some trouble with my business back in the late 2000, 2000s, um,

I chose to not talk to people about it. I was embarrassed that I was going through some problems and I had this perception of myself as such and such entrepreneur and I thought, I don't want to look like a failure and so forth. So I kind of kept quiet. I realized I should have really reached out to people. I should have talked to more people. I would have.

had a third party probably tell me something different than what I was telling myself in my head. so yeah, there's, think having a community from a founder standpoint is really important. I mean, and of course having a community from a brand standpoint is really important as well.

Ramon Vela (32:13.014)
You know, I don't want, we don't need to go through all these tactics and stuff, but I am curious, like in terms of the strategy going forward, some of the things that you're talking about lend themselves really well, like, you know, speaking to customers, you know, being in, being close to the customer and all of that lend itself to like a DTC strategy. initially, is that what you guys went through first? and have you now gone into the retail space?

Or did you start with retail because everyone has sort of like a slightly different strategy that they follow.

Annie (32:47.12)
Yeah, so I joke my background is I can sell millions of dollars of deodorant to Walmart. That's more my bread and butter and classic consumer. The DTC element has been new and it's been fun to bring those two things together. But because of that, I had a pretty strong POV that we should be starting DTC, both for the reasons that you mentioned in terms of, well, for starters, it's pragmatically speaking lowest barriers to entry.

Ramon Vela (33:14.222)
you

Annie (33:15.066)
It's a lower cost, lower risk way to test product market fit, learn some things. And the way in which you're doing that is by having that direct relationship with consumers and having that line of communication to be able to ask questions, get feedback. So that is absolutely where we started. And what's more is as you grow and get into retail, the stakes are higher, the capital you need is higher in terms of inventory and support. And you often only get one ad.

And in our case, we're literally going against some of the largest consumer packaged goods companies in the world. And so we need to get it right. And so what we are wanting to do is use D2C, use e-comm to really test, learn, build out our brand, our community and drive scale so that we're in a position of strength and able to kind of solidly perform once we're in those kind of retail shelves and stores, which is ultimately where we're looking to go. So we started D2C.

Ramon Vela (33:52.066)
Mm-hmm.

Annie (34:14.94)
We ended up then expanding onto Amazon, which is a place that, you know, as of this year is the largest share of beauty purchases in the category. So I'd argue it's a must have. And when you speak with retailers today, they're really looking at how vibrant is your DTC community? How are you performing there? And interestingly, they're all looking at Amazon now to say, and how are you doing on Amazon? It's really hard to fake those metrics, those reviews as a kind of really solid benchmark to say,

Ramon Vela (34:17.731)
Mm-hmm.

Ramon Vela (34:37.742)
you

Annie (34:43.738)
those two things are key informants of are you ready to be at retail and would you be a fit for our store? And I'd say just a quick aside on that Ramon, our mission is fundamentally to become available to the seven or eight out of 10 people who need us when they need us. And so that really lends itself to this kind of mass retail distribution strategy so that we can be as accessible as possible to as many people as possible.

And so that's ultimately where we're looking to grow into and go. But we're trying to be really intentional and thoughtful around that. Inclusive of saying no to a number of retailer accelerator tests, brick and mortar and econ retail distribution, because we didn't feel like it was either the right fit or the right time for us.

Ramon Vela (35:27.566)
Yeah, this is fascinating. We can have a conversation about this too sometime. You're more than, by the way, you're more than welcome back for part two. But this is fascinating in terms of the distribution strategy. And I was actually having a conversation with someone as a side note that the Walmart marketplace is becoming a really interesting place. They still don't have all their stuff together.

just yet like an Amazon does, but they were telling me that it reminds, they're very well versed on Amazon. And they said it kind of reminds them of the early days of Amazon. And they kind of feel like they need to be there little bit there because they feel like the potential, obviously Walmart is huge, right? The potential is there for it to be a big player. anyhow, no, no, I love that strategy. you know, slightly different, obviously different.

industry, but we did an interview with Chomps, my co-host. She did a great job and Chomps, know, really for all the reasons that you discussed and we discussed, they stood in that D2C market for a while before getting into retail. And then once they were in retail, they kind of stood for a little bit with one retailer so that they can kind of learn to understand the whole marketplace. But D2C was their big, I mean, they were there for, think like

four or five years and they, mean, their strategy worked out for them. So I think it's a solid strategy. They're now like half a billion dollars now in sales and so forth, which is amazing because when we first interviewed them, they were like 25 billion, which is still huge, but you know what mean? It's just a long way to go. Let's talk about the product. So everyone out there, you can go to Untoxicated.com. Untoxicated.com.

and to see what we've been talking about. if we're there, I think people, if they're listening to this, they're, I think, really interested in what you had to say. They love this idea of where you're going in terms of the formulation and how you help consumers. Where would they start in their journey with the brand? Where do you recommend people starting with their journey with the brand?

Annie (37:47.538)
Sure. Where I would start is really kind of directly, it's a derivative of our values, which is less can be more with skincare. It doesn't have to be complicated. It doesn't have to be a thousand dollars in 12 steps. In a lot of ways, that's what's created part of the problem. And so for us, it's about, and our core assortment and our price points reflect that. So we have four items total. We really started with two and we've launched

another skew each of the last two years. So very kind of slow and intentional growth to really live the idea that better skin health and your best skin health, I would argue, can be achieved by just really consistent fundamentals with basic yet effective products. And so we started our assortment with our facial cleanser, which is actually our best selling item.

and a lightweight moisturizer. And I'll say for any acne prone sensitive or acne prone oily girlies like me, it's still a pretty heavy moisturizer because it is designed for sensitive skin. But we came up with those two products because those are fundamentally the core of a grooming routine. And you have a good cleanser and a good moisturizer and you're putting on SPF. Everything else is optional and gravy in our perspective. And I think most kind of medical doctors, dermatologists would kind of advocate that.

That's really where we've started. So I'd say a cleanser. We have our lightweight moisturizer. We have our heavier moisturizer, which was then the third item we launched, which is that tubbed cream. I mentioned one, the women's health best moisturizer award. That's great if you have extra dry skin, diabetic skin, arthritic skin, eczema prone skin, where there's, you know, some of the symptoms of that is oftentimes dryness, irritation. Great for nighttime, great for cold.

Ramon Vela (39:25.294)
Mm-hmm.

Annie (39:40.272)
know, dry winter months, knock one, hopefully we're approaching spring here in Chicago. And then our fourth item that we launched, launched is a micellar water. And so that's effectively a three in one product. It's a no rinse cleanser, makeup remover, and kind of skin conditioner. And the reason why we launched that is often there are a things. One, if people have really sensitive skin, applying water to their face is actually drying, it dries out their skin a bit. And so cleansing twice a day isn't always feasible.

Ramon Vela (40:07.246)
and

Annie (40:10.236)
So micellar is a gentler cleanser. And then two is if you have sensitive skin and you wear makeup, the act of applying makeup is inherently irritating. And then makeup removers are also generally really harsh. And so we wanted to provide a product that addresses yet another need that we were seeing in our audience. So I took your question and ran with it a little bit, Ramon. But the reason why I share that is kind of twofold. One, we're trying to be really intentional with skin basics. It doesn't need to be complicated.

Ramon Vela (40:28.258)
Wow.

Annie (40:37.916)
But then two is the way in which we're doing that is we're following and listening to our community and what are their greatest needs and how can we meet them there if they're not being solved in the market today.

Ramon Vela (40:48.334)
Yeah, and you know, so two words on that. So I had an opportunity to try this, try your products. I love them. I've actually continued to use them. And I love the moisturizer, what do call it? The moisture boost face and body cream. I love that. And quite frankly, I think I mentioned, I may have mentioned this to you, I think I did, that before doing this podcast,

Annie (41:00.05)
Hey.

Ramon Vela (41:15.446)
I never really understood the value of skincare. I you know, I guess as a man, maybe we're taught things a little bit differently because, you we don't have to put makeup on until we don't have, you know, these things are typically we don't put makeup on. But, but that doesn't mean that our skin is that we don't require this.

these products as well. And we do. And I can tell you that using them now has made my skin so much, you know, think healthier, you know, both on my, but one quick tidbit for those, people out there. I also put on my neck. Most people don't realize that you should put on your neck too, but they always focus on the face. But I started doing it on my neck and I was like, wow, that feels pretty good.

Annie (42:00.274)
Mm-hmm.

Ramon Vela (42:01.634)
But one of the other things that I really enjoy about this, product is a price point. You kind of mentioned it. I see a lot of products on the marketplace. I think you guys are really, really priced. mean, you guys offer this value at a really good price. That's all I'm gonna say. It's like, it's really, good.

Annie (42:20.402)
Thank you. No, I appreciate that. And I want to say, don't diminish yourself as it relates to kind of skincare habits. And the reason why I say that is, I grew up in the 90s. We were using Strydx pads. We were putting all kinds of stuff with talc and you name it, all kinds of stuff that we now know is actually, I kind of say it's like putting a nail file on your skin, right? Like that's a pretty visceral thing that people can grasp.

Ramon Vela (42:35.594)
I'm really looking forward

Annie (42:48.892)
I would say as with skin health, nutrition, I think we're in this age of awakening where we're realizing that a lot of these trends and habits that we had abided by are not actually kind of best case for ongoing health, wellbeing, longevity. And so I would say I've had to relearn all of that. I had to relearn nutrition, right? I was in the low fat tab, fat free pretzels phase, right? So I just want to say, I think what you've experienced, what I've come to experience is actually much more common.

Ramon Vela (43:10.616)
you

Annie (43:18.45)
that we're now just equipped with better information around how to care for ourselves. And we do have about 30 to 40 % of our audience is men because there is this idea of I want to take care of myself. I'd love something that's basic, effective, not fragrances, overly, whatever it is, that gets the job done without the unwanted extras. And that's kind of how we talk about our brand, which is what your skin needs without the unwanted extras.

Prove that through in our ingredients. We have 14 ingredients or less in our items. And the first ingredient is always like water and then four or five hero ingredients, ceramides, hyaluronic acid, arginine. So all the good stuff that your skin needs. And we try to limit anything that's unnecessary quote unquote for skin, right? We chose to put a preservative in because we thought that was more important to have a shelf stable product than risk, you know, not having one and people having reactions from bacteria, right?

So everything we've done has been so intentional, inclusive of our ingredients and our price point. And I'll tell you, investors push back a lot. Why is your product not more expensive? There's nothing like it. You could be charging more. And Martin and my perspective has been the same since day one, which is, yes, we need to make money. We want to scale a business because we want this to be as accessible as possible to as many people as possible. But we think our route to getting there is by creating something that hopefully

Ramon Vela (44:26.114)
Mm-hmm.

Annie (44:46.842)
as many out of the seven out of 10 people who need us can afford. Why would we create something that only two out of 10 people can afford when seven out of 10 need it? And so, all of our products, if go to our website, they're $25 or less, but it's not for an ounce. We're talking seven to 10 ounces of product that we have people coming back and being like, how long is this good for? Because I use it every day and it's been six months. And we love to hear that, right? Because we...

Ramon Vela (44:52.078)
.

Annie (45:15.322)
It's putting a lot of pressure in our business, especially in this world right now with tariffs and other things. But it's important to us to make sure that we're accessible to people we're looking to serve.

Ramon Vela (45:24.844)
Yeah, well, I can really appreciate that. I mean, I realize that it's very difficult because for everyone out there, creating a product obviously is very, very difficult, but there is something called unit economics. And most manufacturing and most of that is geared towards making the most...

profit and margin on that unit economics. And so when you diverge from that, sometimes it's not as profitable. And then if you add on top of that your desire to make your product more accessible.

that also obviously affects how much money you make. But I think that if you have a great product, a great value proposition, you make it accessible.

I don't know. think that that's a winning proposition as well. then of course getting it out, which makes it more important to get it out to as many people as possible and having them understand this. I don't have to deal with makeup or anything like that, but as a man, I would just say that like this lightweight hydrate, moisturizing lotion.

This one I love using. use it. I've used it during the day. This one I've used it at night after after I wash my face Using the facial cleanser. I use this one. I don't even know if I'm doing them right, but I figure it doesn't matter but Yeah, I use Yeah, I use a heavy one at night and then during the day I use I use this but anyhow, I just think they're amazing and

Annie (46:59.106)
You nailed it, yeah, and that's very common, that heavier one, yeah, at night.

Ramon Vela (47:11.4)
I, like I said, I can't believe that the price point is just really, really good, especially for the quality of the products. I highly recommend it. A couple of other things on your website is, you know, they do have not only just the products here, but they have also a tab and this is on the website, Untoxicated.com. They have a tab where you learn, you can learn more about your skin, you can learn about the founders, you can learn all sorts of information.

and walk me through this earn tab here you have a referral program

Annie (47:45.492)
so, yeah, and on our website, are all about, there's so much BS in the category in terms of false endorsements, terms that don't mean anything, that we really strive to be, again, accessible is one of our pillars. Not just in terms of price point and where you can get us, but how are we educating and informing people and making taking care of their health accessible to them? Teaching people to fish is really important to us. I believe empowerment is a future of

beauty, the future of healthcare. So we lay out every ingredient we include, their purpose, the over 1,500 ingredients we exclude and why. So we have all of that on our site. But what we also have is, it's our referral program for our consumers, our community. Going back to kind of, you what is something that I think that, you know, if people knew about us, they would, you know, favor us more. And this gets back to kind of the point you were making Ramon to start with is,

Ramon Vela (48:41.678)
Mm-hmm.

Annie (48:45.842)
much we care, sometimes to a degree that's painful. Like I'll get a zinger of a customer service email and it ruins my day. But we read every single message we get, we respond to every single comment. We are actively monitoring conversations in our community and we keep track of all of that and what would be, you know, a spreadsheet that would make a banker blush. There's just so much in it because we care so much about what people are saying and thinking and using that information to guide us ahead. But as a part of that,

or kind of broadening that our community is the lifeblood of our business, right? If I'm going to kind of summarize that. And so we were having a lot of people coming to us and saying, I'm recommending this to friends and family, or I brought this into my dermatologist and my derm wants to reach out. And so we're sitting here and instead of just saying, know, sending a thank you email saying, here's a code so that if you're doing that in the future and it's an authentic thing.

you're getting rewards back, whether it's free product from us, real cash back in your bank account. And so that's been a really great program for us to really mobilize our evangelists that are kind of day-to-day people. They're not striving to be influencers, right? But that are true advocates of the brand in a way that kind of creates that feedback loop and that way of saying, instead of just a one-off thank you in an email, here's real product ongoing for free or here's

know cash back in your account. So that's been a really fun program for us.

Ramon Vela (50:16.608)
Yeah, I can believe it. And I definitely encourage you out there listening to take a look when you go to the website, take a look at that, but also just sign up for their newsletter because that's probably the best way to figure out or keep up to date on new products, promotions, things like that that you guys are doing. And again, I can't recommend this enough. this is just so easy in terms of, mean, it's so affordable, but it's also very easy. I do this at

This is the the moisturizing boost I do the lightweight during the day and by the way what I've noticed is a couple things is that when I use this and It's kind of like refreshing a little bit to me at least I don't know if it's meant to be that way But it's all feels refreshing to do to do that and then of course this you need to clean at night as well and To me it's like this is so affordable. It's such an easy

routine to use. And if you're out there and you're not using something like this or, uh, or like me, you know, kind of just getting into really, you know, making sure your skin is healthy. It is, it doesn't take that long for you to notice an impact. I remember someone saying like,

hey, you your skin looks pretty good. it's looking really healthier. like, you kind of look like you're glowing a little bit. And I'm thinking like, wow, it's like, I can't believe it. It's like, this stuff works. know, like this stuff actually, you know.

Annie (51:45.554)
I, helps, but when I tell you, I get that compliment all the time. And when people say that to me, I just can't even accept the compliment anymore. Cause I'm like, you're just saying that because you know I run a skincare. I can't trust people as it relates to the health of my skin anymore. But no, I appreciate that. And you know, we're really big on, it's not about miracles. It's about consistency over time and having a solid routine of high quality products. doesn't have to be.

Ramon Vela (51:58.934)
Yeah.

Annie (52:14.93)
buy products, doesn't have to be expensive products, but stick to the baseline, right? Like just good basic hygiene, like with nutrition or other things, it's kind of like 80-20 rule, right? Find the right foundation that works for you, listen to your skin and your body, and then figure out on top of that, what are your needs or your aspirations on top of it, right? Is it acne or aging, or maybe you're just good with that, but our goal is not that, you know, love that you're using all of our products together, we love seeing that.

I also tell people, you'd come into my vanity, you wouldn't just see Untoxicated. You're going to see Prequel and these other brands that I love to use or that I'm trying for work. And I'm finding the routine, but really using that as the anchor. so again, our goal is keep it simple. If anyone decides to try our products, we'd of course love that. We offer a 30-day money-back guarantee because it's critically important to us that, again, community, you're happy.

With your purchase, things aren't cheap and they're getting more expensive these days. We want to make sure people feel good about their purchase. And I'm oftentimes behind the scenes on customer service emails and other things. And so don't hesitate to reach out because we're always just an email or a message away in that regard too. And we're proud for that to be the case.

Ramon Vela (53:28.696)
Well, that's it.

Yeah, that's fantastic. And by the way, I'll let you go because I know you have to leave. But real quick. So my daughter is a teenager and she has had problems with acne. She's actually doing really well right now, but she's had problems with acne. And my son did too. My other daughter. But she's a teenager. And obviously, you know how important it is to teenagers and so forth. So she's very, very careful about what she puts on her skin because she has reactions to it and a reaction can flare up.

up her you know her acne and so forth and and she was asking me not that long ago she goes I need a moisturizer you know I need to go buy one I'm like why do you need to buy one I think I have something for you why don't you try it so she's tried it and she loves it so she she it hasn't upset her like it hasn't irritated her skin hasn't done anything

And, and I told her, go, well, I'm learning about the brand. I'm going to be interviewing them. But I kind of think that this is one of the, like, you're one of the customers that, you know, that this is built for. Like if you have sensitive skin, this is something that you really need to look at. so anyways, she loves it and she's been using it as well. So.

Annie (54:40.818)
I appreciate that moment and fun fact there's actually a high degree of overlap between sensitive skin and acne because and oftentimes they're related to disrupted skin barriers So quite a large portion of our audience is acne prone myself included Generally speaking. We're very acne safe I find that the cream that tub on my face is a little bit too heavy come summer But nothing in our products, so we're totally non comedogenic but

Again, going back to category terms, what that means is nothing in our products themselves will cause a breakout. But because our formulas are so occlusive, they create that barrier. If your skin is not well washed beneath, right? Like if you're sweating or other things, they can start to feel a little bit heavy. But to your point exactly, our products were formulated to be safe for all skin types, and they are clinically proven as such, and safe for all ages. So I have a lot of friends right now that are in the, you know,

early, all the way from like newborns to, you we've got tweens. And one of the pieces of feedback I've been consistently getting is, you know, either I've got a newborn and it's great to feel like this is a better version of what would have been in the market anyways, because fun fact, there's nothing regulatory wise that, you know, would require you to check the box on to see you're good for kids. This is effectively about the best baby care you can get out there. But they're like, it's great. I don't have to think about it. There's one product

that I can use me and my child irrespective of how sensitive they are. My niece is going through this. She's allergic to peanuts, milk, you name it. This is the only thing she's been able to tolerate to the point that her dermatologist was like, what is she using on her skin? And can you bring that in? Like true story, my brother and sister-in-law hadn't been going in like Girl Scout cookies with our products and their allergist was like, your niece, Lily, her skin is such a, her allergies are such a mess.

Ramon Vela (56:24.078)
.

Annie (56:36.626)
How have you been able to maintain her skin health? And they were like, well, funny enough, you ask. So point being, it's good for newborns all the way on through to tweens who are wanting products that are efficacious, that are not necessarily the uncool old stuff that grandma used to use or mom used to use. So we're finding that there's a lot of opportunity within households and families. And one of the things that we're trying to do is say, how do we not stray away from our core?

Ramon Vela (56:39.342)
Hmm.

Ramon Vela (56:42.798)
you

Annie (57:05.328)
and trying to establish who we are, but start to communicate and speak with these other audiences who we're also fulfilling needs for and could help. So we haven't found the answer to it yet. We're doing some kind of early exploration with our community. But I just want to say with all of that, thank you for bringing that up because that is, again, this idea of worry-free skincare. You don't have to worry about the ingredients in it. You don't have to worry about who in your house is using it what their skin type is because it is so.

Ramon Vela (57:13.998)
Hmm.

Annie (57:33.316)
limited ingredient, gentle yet effective, that it will help keep their skin healthy as that foundation. And you don't need to worry about if they're being exposed to harsh retinoids as a young child or whatever the unintended consequences of those harsh ingredients might be.

Ramon Vela (57:49.356)
Yeah. And I'm glad you brought that up about the babies and the children, because I remember when my kids were babies, I remember not really trusting the Johnson and Johnson products that we were marketed to and purchased. But I just didn't think of that. That actually is a really good use case. So this has been fantastic. Thank you so much. Give us a social media handle and then any partners that you want to shout out.

Annie (58:03.826)
Yeah.

Annie (58:10.962)
Yeah.

Annie (58:19.996)
Sure, so we're available as Ramon mentioned at our website, Untoxicated.com, U-N-T-O-X-I-C-A-T-E-D, that would have been embarrassing if I got the spelling wrong, pressure, and on Amazon as well. And we're most active on Instagram. Our handle is Untoxicated Skincare. But you can reach out to us there on our website, shoot us an email, we'd love to hear from you.

Ramon Vela (58:45.858)
Great. Well, this has been fantastic. Thank you. And thank you for being flexible. We started our interview a little bit late, so I know we need to rush out and you've got something somewhere to go right now. But everyone out there, we have just had Annie Meyer, who is co-founder and CEO of Untoxicated. And she mentioned the website, but we're going to have that link as well as the IG link on our podcast description, which you can find at Apple, Spotify, and pretty much anywhere you listen to podcasts, simply type in the story of our brand show.

and you should be able to find it. Beyond that, I always tell you, stay safe, stay sane, stay healthy. And in this case, one thing you can do is go to intoxicated.com and keep your skin healthy. Do what I've been doing. It's just, this is a base. I don't really put a lot of stuff on my skin. And so I do look for, I do have sensitive skin actually. And I look for things that I can use for moisturizers. Moisturizer is a big thing for me. And believe me, that's just a small thing that I do.

And it has such a big impact. You people always tell me like, I have a hat on right now, but people always tell me like, Hey, your skin looks really good. And so forth. I'm 56, 56. Yeah. 56 years old. forget. lose. I lose count. Yeah. After Saturdays I really don't count.

Annie (59:54.834)
After a certain age, Ramon, it's your largest organ and the first thing that people see. So it matters. It's not only a sign of your overall health, but there's the emotional part of making impressions. So, herd.

Ramon Vela (01:00:07.15)
Oh yeah. Well, you know, I shaved my beard off every now and then, you know, periodically and it grows back too quickly, but I shave it off and I do have people tell me like, you know what, even though you're like, you've got gray hair and all of that, he goes, your, your skin, like it doesn't seem like it's changed. Like you still look like a young man. Like if you just had darker hair, whatever you use, it's just still look like much younger. And I think it's because I've been just doing the moisturizing, just something really simple cleaning.

with a good cleanser and then using the moisturizer. So anyhow, it does stuff really work. So go check it out. The price point's fantastic. And then beyond that, everyone, one last thing. We've all been going through something really difficult with the pandemic and the economy and tariffs and wars and politics, whatever. Let's just do ourselves a favor. Let's just remember that everyone is going through something. And if we can do that, I know we can make this human experience a better one. Beyond that, thank you.

from the bottom of my heart for listening to another episode of the story of a brand.