NoNormal - Made for and by Coffee Lovers and Outdoor Enthusiasts

Ramon Vela (00:03.202)
Welcome back everyone. This is going to be a great show. I have with me Alexander Haberlin, who is co-founder of NoNormal. Welcome to the show.

Alexander (00:30.123)
Thank you very much for having me Ron, looking forward.

Ramon Vela (00:33.026)
Well, I appreciate you making time for us. I know you're busy. You're we're actually in different time zones and we can mention talk about in a bit where you're where you're calling from. But I appreciate you making time. Entrepreneurship is so busy. There's a million things to do always. You have a to do list that is just so long all the time. And for you to make a little bit of time for me is just truly, truly, I'm truly grateful for that. So thank you. All right. So

Alexander (00:59.083)
Pleasure.

Ramon Vela (01:02.962)
I, I, when I saw your product, was immediately intrigued. So we're going to go over what that product is in a second, but I just wanted to start that off with the audience is that I was immediately intrigued. I had never seen anything like that. I wanted you to know more about why it was and what you did and what the reason was and everything else. And then I also wanted to taste it. so I'm, we'll talk about in a second, but I just wanted to put that teaser out there.

Alexander (01:10.699)
Peace.

Ramon Vela (01:32.726)
I've never seen a product like this before. I don't know if anything else exists like this, but for me, it's a brand new and I had never seen anything. So I can't wait to dive in. Before we do though, I feel strongly that it is important for the listener to know who we're speaking to. It is so easy in this world of ours of fast commerce and retail outlets and so forth.

for a consumer or a listener to see a product on the market or on the shelf or online and simply just think it's another faceless corporation, some large corporate company, you know, creating products. And I really want people to know that the brands and the companies that we feature on this show, there are real people behind these businesses that bleed, sweat and tear over their product.

Alexander (02:23.267)
Okay.

Ramon Vela (02:27.744)
over making their product and care about the product and care about the consumers. And so one way of sort of humanizing this and bringing this interview down to a very personal level is really by understanding who you are and gratitude is a great way to do that. So I'd love to find out what you're grateful for and so the audience knows and we can get to know you a little bit. So if you don't mind, and with that said, what is...

Can you share a moment or memory when someone did something for you that just made you feel grateful because it meant that they believed in you, your vision, or your potential?

Alexander (03:06.578)
Yeah, I mean, I have a really clear moment, which is actually connected to NoNormal in the very, very early days, which is not that far along ago, actually. It was pretty much one and a half years ago when we launched our very first crowdfunding campaign. that was at the very beginning. mean, we didn't even have the final product in our hands yet. It was a

Ramon Vela (03:18.744)
you

Alexander (03:35.615)
think we used tomato paste tube, which we spray painted black and kind of stuck our logo on it. And that was kind of the product we use in our video for the crowdfunder. And you you, you click like launch and you have absolutely no idea if anybody's going to care. You know, if maybe we're not going to get a single ordering. And it was just, it was really great to see. We launched on this Swiss, very, very small Swiss crowdfunding platform.

Ramon Vela (03:41.486)
the

Ramon Vela (03:55.566)
Mm-hmm.

Alexander (04:03.999)
because we were kind of scared that somebody's gonna steal our idea if we launch on Kickstarter. And it instantly took off. And we got a ton of emails from people saying, my God, this is so amazing. It's really what I needed for my outdoor adventures. You really kind of hit that nail on the head when it comes to the functionality of what's missing right now with the current coffee solutions.

That was just, you know, you work so hard in this idea and to get that, to get that feedback is just worth so much, especially in these really, really early days where you're so unsure if what you're doing is just complete garbage. know, you tell your friends like, are you sure? You know, just don't you want to, I mean, I still had a fixed job, you know, I still had a fairly, fairly good job running for myself. And I was like, dude, if this works out, I'm going to like go all in, you know? And you have your friends be like,

really sure you want to do this, blah, blah. So that feedback and those emails really, really helped to give us the confidence to go all in.

Ramon Vela (05:13.036)
Wow, I love those moments. And it goes to the heart of the question, but it also is a great validation point. So for you to feel like you're heading in the right direction and that there's actual people who like this product and want this product. And throughout your time as an entrepreneur, I'm sure you've already realized that there's different milestones or different validation points along the way.

Alexander (05:22.216)
Absolutely.

Ramon Vela (05:38.126)
you know, sales numbers and retail outlets or whatever it is that the strategy is, but there's always these milestones and these validation points. But, but in terms of, in terms of the, gratitude question, it goes to the heart of the question in that, you know, people love the idea, they validate the idea. And this, this type of validation or encouragement is.

It can be understated because as an entrepreneur, for the most part, when you're creating a consumer product, you're building basically something out of nothing. And, and you start with an idea and the idea could be, you know, the iPhone or it could be no normal. It could be whatever, but I mean, you start with, with nothing that you started with an idea. that idea might sound crazy to some people, but you know, you have a reason for it. And then you find other people who.

Alexander (06:22.283)
you

Ramon Vela (06:34.392)
who feel the same way and that's what makes a successful company. in the beginning, there's a lot of doubt. so to have that validation can't be understated. So thank you for sharing that. And I guess that would lead us to, now I'm sure people are listening to this, really want to know what this is. So let me just give them the quick website and then we'll talk about what this is.

Alexander (06:42.793)
Yep.

Alexander (06:48.747)
Mm.

Ramon Vela (07:04.332)
So the website is no normal. So whether you're listening to this by having you listen to watch this, if you watch this on YouTube, I'll flash the screen with the website, but, but if you're out there listening, you can go to no normal.com is the website. So Alexander, I'm going to give you the pleasure of describing what this is, to the audience. Cause I, again, when I first saw it, I just immediately was intrigued and did not.

Alexander (07:25.877)
Thank

Ramon Vela (07:33.57)
had never seen anything like this. And I wasn't even thinking just outdoors, although I'm a very much outdoors person, but I immediately got it. But I was just immediately thinking, wow, what is this? And then of course, how does it taste? So yeah, so give us an honor of what is no normal? What is this product?

Alexander (07:46.699)
you

Alexander (07:54.731)
So, NoNormal is the brand and our very first product under the NoNormal umbrella is the NoNormal coffee. And it's the world's first highly concentrated coffee paste that comes in a recyclable aluminium tube. And there's a ton of benefits, even though it sounds kind of weird at first. And like you said, when you first saw it, it's really intriguing.

But it makes so much sense, especially in the outdoor context. And that's also why we like to call it the outdoor coffee. Because you basically have not unlimited, but a very, long shelf life on it. So you just chuck it your backpack and wherever, whenever you are and you feel like a cup of coffee, you just mix a teaspoon of the paste with hot or cold water.

And you have a really nice cup of coffee, a really uncomplicated, nice cup of coffee. And the great thing about it is also that, you know, when you're, when you're doing outdoor adventures, it does happen that border is tight, but you still kind of want that. And, know, if you really want to prepare a cup of coffee, let's say with a, with a stove top coffee solution, it does require quite a decent amount of water. And with our solution.

Ramon Vela (09:10.083)
Mm-hmm.

Alexander (09:22.759)
you can also enjoy the pace as it is. So you can put that pace on a banana, you can put it on a cookie, you can eat it directly out of the tube, that all works. And it's super tasty because this first flavor is also slightly sweetened. So that works really, really well. I mean, we have like, we've collected so many ways how people use it. The main one is obviously dissolving in water and drinking a coffee. The second one is

Ramon Vela (09:40.174)
Mm-hmm.

Alexander (09:52.445)
spreading it on things or mixing it with things. So for example, I love to mix it with peanut butter or with Nutella. And it's just like, it's super, super tasty. Or people bake with it. Like we got people sending us recipes of like sourdough bread. They made like coffee infused sourdough bread. Or when we have events in the evening where nobody wants to drink coffee, obviously we make espresso martinis, which works really, really well.

Ramon Vela (10:02.519)
Thanks

Alexander (10:22.187)
People make steak rub out of it. It's like, the use case is endless. The use case is endless, which can be tricky from a communication point of view. You don't want to say like it's everything for everybody. So we really try to focus on that outdoor use case of dissolving it in hot or cold water.

Ramon Vela (10:26.04)
Thank you.

Ramon Vela (10:41.614)
Mm-hmm. And so that's very interesting. I did not know that maybe we're doing it, we're using it in different ways. I honestly did not know that. So it's very interesting. I've used the product and I'll talk about my experience in a second, but, actually I'm actually drinking it right now. It is, yeah, that is surprising. Now that I think about it, now that you've mentioned it, I can see where that's the case. So.

Alexander (10:59.593)
Very nice.

Ramon Vela (11:11.458)
but I had no idea. guess people, there's a lot of very weird or creative people, however you want to put it. But definitely that's cool. I got to try the peanut butter because I'm a big peanut butter fan. So let's start off with, I have to know where was and how did the concept arise? Because this is really interesting. I mean, are you an outdoors person? Did you have trouble with coffee? Because I know I have.

I, when we go camping and or I do these hikes where there's a place not that far from me. I actually moved to where I moved because I'm closer to hiking trails. And so, so there's a hiking trail that's about, it's a five mile hike. And when you get up to the point, there's sort of like a ranger station. It's a nice sort of wooded area. And, and we hang out with people there and we have coffee, you know, maybe a little bite to eat before we, you know, hike back down.

Alexander (11:50.749)
Nice.

Ramon Vela (12:10.754)
And coffee is one of those things where people forget, like, did anyone bring coffee? anyone, you know, can we, you know, like, and I always thought like, I need to remember to bring those packs with me and whatever, but it's just a pain in the butt. And, and what I really loved is being able to just bring my, you know, my metal, my metal coffee cup, the tube of pace or I how you want to describe it. And,

Alexander (12:18.549)
Thank

Ramon Vela (12:38.476)
and just have water there. And if there's hot water, fantastic, if there's not, then, and so I really appreciated that. So I'd love to hear your story. How did this concept come about?

Alexander (12:39.982)
Yeah.

Alexander (12:51.263)
Yeah, it's not that far away from your experience. So me and my co-founder, Philipp, we're childhood friends basically. And we both spent a lot of time outdoor camping, hiking, ski touring, because we're based in Switzerland. like, obviously the possibilities are endless to spend time outdoors. And we, the older we got, the more...

important coffee got in those experiences. And we used to even plan hikes based on where we would drink coffee. You know, like we would look at the map and be like, I know that there's a spot there with a great view. There's a bench, you know, we can have our coffee there and enjoy. So it was really, important for us. And I used to bring half my kitchen with me. You know, I had my grinder, my coffee beans, you know, my stove, like I had like quite a lot of gear with me just to make that cup of coffee and fill it.

On the other hand, was the complete opposite and it was just like taking his instant sticks with him, know, whatever that was. And you know, when you're young, you don't really care. take, you just carry the gigantic backpacks and it's fine. And the older you get, the more you get into like, okay, how can I optimize the weight of my backpack? It's kind of getting heavy and it's been annoying to clean. And I was like, man, I'm spending so much money on like light gear while at the same time I'm carrying like,

Ramon Vela (14:04.438)
the

Alexander (14:16.651)
two kilos of coffee, coffee preparing gear with me. And I'm fed up on the other hand was like, yeah, I mean, it's cool how easy instant is, but it's just, it's just didn't perform when it comes to taste, especially next to my setup, you know? So this one hike, yeah, about two years ago, we just started brainstorming and thinking about like, okay, what other ways would there be to kind of improve that moment?

And at that time coffee concentrates. We're really starting to emerge. It's been a thing in the US for quite a long time, but in Switzerland and Europe, it wasn't really here yet. But I ordered some from the US and I thought, wow, it's actually a really easy way to make a good cup of coffee. The only thing was that you need to refrigerate the bottle once you open it.

And very often they would come in like a glass bottle and it just wasn't obviously the perfect setup for outdoors. And during that hike, Philip really, really said like, what about coffee in a tube? Coffee in a tube means coffee in a tube in Swiss German. And, you know, at first you're like, that's a funny idea. You know, and then you have a three hour hike in front of you back home and you start thinking about it and like, actually that's kind of cool.

You know, it's, and then you, you start thinking of like use case and like, used, I studied industrial design, worked long as an industrial designer. For me, the tube format is this really nice. Objects, you know, it's a really bold and honest product packaging. feel that it has a bit of heritage to it. It's not like, you know, new and plastic. It's very kind of. Honest. And yeah, by the time we got home, we're like, okay, this is really, really cool.

Ramon Vela (16:04.707)
Mm-mm.

Alexander (16:11.787)
But I'm sure it already exists. And how it is, I mean, we have so many business ideas together. And each time we would start like Googling it, would find like a gazillion companies already doing it. But with this one, there was literally nobody who had done it or is doing it. And we were like, wow, OK, that's, we don't have any reason not to do it.

And there and then we were like, OK, you know what? Let's just try setting this up, see how far we can get, and take it from there. And you know how it is when you have an idea, your brain just starts sparking, and you get excited. And, um.

Alexander (17:02.027)
I went, I remember going to the bathroom and then coming back and being like, I have the name. I know what to call it. And I was like, we're going to call it Presso. Because it's like espresso you can press out of a tube. And Philip was like, whoa, it's amazing. Let's do it. Amazing. Perfect. Perfect. I started designing logos and packaging and whatever. And it was all fire. then

Ramon Vela (17:09.048)
Ha

Ramon Vela (17:17.346)
Yeah.

Alexander (17:28.415)
Further down the road, the name Presso wasn't the smartest idea. Very close to Nespresso and another big company in Europe already had the IP of that name. So yeah, that was basically the beginning of NoNormal and where the idea came from.

Ramon Vela (17:47.074)
Well, and in this particular case, you know, we talked earlier about how there's a lot of self down, a lot of, you know, worry that things aren't things. This may not be a great idea. it's a great idea to you, but it may not be a great idea to others. And in this case, I think it's really warranted because like I said, you know, if there's, mean, well, let me ask you this. there was just to confirm, there was no product out there that you found that looked, that was like this similar to this, right?

Alexander (18:17.553)
Bayo was the only thing that we could find was in the, I think in the first or second world war, there was like a coffee in a tube, but it was like one portion. was basically, it wasn't concentrated. It was just one coffee in a tube format so that you could keep it for a really long time. And then Nestle did a test of coffee and milk in Australia and New Zealand.

Ramon Vela (18:37.507)
Yeah.

Alexander (18:46.857)
which was also not really concentrated, full of sugar and with condensed milk. And they discontinued that, I think 10 years ago. So that was the only two things we found, which were kind of similar, but not really what we wanted to do.

Ramon Vela (18:55.182)
Hmm.

Ramon Vela (19:01.484)
Yeah, well, and I'll tell you that I've never seen anything like this and I'm a big coffee drinker. love coffee and I had never seen anything like this. So for me, it was very intriguing. But, you know, but it's understandable that you had that sort of doubt or, you know, worry that maybe this wouldn't fly or this wouldn't be appealing to other people. So in terms of the actual creation of the product, what were the challenges?

It's a great idea, I think, it's such a great, know, I don't know what to refer to this as a format or it's really, for me, I think it's really interesting. But there must have been challenges. What were the challenges into creating this? it the taste? Was it the formulation of the coffee itself? Was it the way that...

Alexander (19:40.171)
Mm.

Alexander (19:47.945)
Yeah.

Ramon Vela (19:56.598)
its structure so that you can squeeze it out of the tube.

Alexander (20:01.195)
Yeah, I mean, as you can imagine, there were many challenges, which we thankfully overcame. But I would say at the very beginning, it was like figuring out where to even start, you know, because neither Philip nor myself had a food background. Like we had no clue how to develop a food product, you know. I mean, we started in our kitchen, you know, like bought like

thickeners and try to concentrate coffee. And like it was, was absolute disaster. we either had like a sludge of, of undrinkable coffee or it was kind of like a pudding or it just like, it didn't work at all. So we were like, okay, we got to find somebody who knows what they're doing. And we basically just asked around in our network, like, Hey guys, like how do you start this? And apparently there's agencies, food development agencies.

which help you exactly with that step. We found one in Zurich. We contacted them and briefed them on what we wanted. And two months later, they had a very first prototype of what was somewhat similar to what we're looking for. Obviously, with like a bunch of questions and topics to be solved, but we were in that meeting room and there was a tube lying on the table.

which you could squeeze in a glass and dissolve in hot water and you would have a coffee. So that was like step one. Okay, check. It's like somewhat possible apparently to make this work. The second big step was like, okay, how do we find somebody who can make this? So after a lot of research online, we really wanted to make it in Switzerland. That was kind of from the get-go.

Ramon Vela (21:33.038)
Thanks.

Alexander (21:52.523)
a requirement we wanted. was like that made in Switzerland stamp. And we found a partner who was willing to meet us. And we went there with our pitch deck and our sample of the coffee paste. And we're like, look, this is what we want to do. This is the very first prototype. Is this something you could build? And they were really intrigued.

Ramon Vela (21:57.731)
Mm-hmm.

Alexander (22:19.883)
They have a great expertise in coffee. There's like a coffee lab and everything, so they could really help us kind of identify what we could improve. And then the next challenge was, okay, what should our first flavor taste like? know, mean, coffee is like wine. You can go in like million directions. neither Philip or I were coffee experts. So we were like, you know what? We're going to develop this coffee.

Ramon Vela (22:38.988)
Mm-hmm.

Alexander (22:48.875)
this first flavor for us. Like that's, that's how it started. And that's how we're going to get this first flavor out of the door. So it took about 12 iterations of the recipe, um, going from, you know, Robusta coffee to Arabica coffee to, um, one with sugar, one without light roast, medium roast, dark roast. Like we went through the whole palette and each time we would just go there, take a sip and be like,

That's not bad. Let's change this. And, you know, I think midway we were like, dude, what are we doing? We have no idea what we're talking about. But I think that really turned out to be the right approach to really design it for ourselves because we were both fairly uncomplicated coffee drinkers. And that was also our goal. We wanted to make an uncomplicated cup of coffee. We're not challenging any specialty coffee or an espresso machine that's

Ramon Vela (23:24.973)
Hehehehe

Ramon Vela (23:42.862)
Hmm.

Alexander (23:47.679)
by far not our meat. And it needed to be a crowd pleaser, you know. So that was an interesting one. And the fact, the sugar. So that's a really, really interesting one, I think, is with or without sugar. And depending on who you ask, everybody will have a very strong opinion on the first or the second. And with recipe number 12,

We had one version with sugar and one version without sugar. And we were sitting in the meeting room, we're like, oh my God, we don't know which one to go for. Philip really liked the one with sugar. I prefer the one without sugar. And we were like, you know what? We're calling this the outdoor coffee and we're taste, we're drinking it here in the office in this meeting room. Like how can we judge how it's going to taste when people actually use it in the outdoors? Because

Then you might be tired, you know, it's gonna be cold. It's like all factors that play a role in the taste experience. So we're like, okay, let's do a day hike. And on like two and a half thousand meters altitude, we'll try them again and decide. do the hike, prepare the coffee. And it was like a hundred percent clear that the first one will be with sugar because

Ramon Vela (24:59.224)
Yes.

Alexander (25:10.505)
Because you know, you know how it is when you're hiking, you're, you, you're looking for energy sources. And if that coffee has a little bit of sugar inside, it's like, you're happy that the sugar is there. so that really helped, solving that one. And yeah, I mean, now further, further down, those were like, like, let's say very, very early stage challenges. And now I would say further down the line, other challenges.

Ramon Vela (25:21.07)
Mm-hmm.

Alexander (25:39.765)
come up which are more like cash flow and you know when we do the next production and how do we pay for it and where do we storage it and how do we get product over to the US and like all the challenges that come with a kind of company that's like more or less running let's say.

Ramon Vela (25:56.62)
Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll discuss some of those, but let me just say that I think that was the right move. What you guys did, which was to go hike up there. And and I think this might be a good spot for me to say, so I tried the product, as I mentioned. And so, you know, it comes in comes in actually comes in a box right there made in Switzerland. Adventure ready.

And you know, there's all the information in the back to open the box and so forth. And then of course you have this, you know, the tube. So you can see I squeezed it already here. And so I have to be honest with you, I was sort of, I was a little intimidated. I was just like, what do I do? Like, you I wonder how this is going to taste and this and that. So I went ahead and followed the instructions basically and.

Alexander (26:46.539)
Sweet.

Ramon Vela (26:54.606)
made myself a cup of coffee. did warm up some water first and then I poured it into a cup. then I have to say, so I was a little, I didn't know what to expect, I should say, because I've never had something like this in the tube. And I was just thinking like, wow, this is kind of a little weird, you know, doing the tube. And so I mix it in the drink and I usually have coffee. I can have coffee both ways, personally.

Alexander (27:12.011)
I'm

Ramon Vela (27:24.364)
I can have it with sugar, without sugar. I can have it with cream, with no cream. And I've always noticed though that a really good cup of coffee will taste good either way. But if you don't have any sugar or any cream and the coffee still tastes good, that means it's a good cup of coffee. It's like you can just have it by itself. And so again, I was a apprehensive, but I tried it, I mixed it.

And I have to say that I was very pleasantly surprised. It was actually a really good cup of coffee. I had it plain. I didn't put anything in it. And, and I was just thinking like, wow, you know, this is, this is actually pretty good. This is actually like a very, very decent cup of coffee. I, I wasn't a sacrifice or anything. Yeah. You know, like you're, sometimes you, you buy products and they're okay, but,

Alexander (27:55.061)
Nice.

Alexander (28:04.404)
I'm

Ramon Vela (28:17.996)
they meet a certain need. And so you think, okay, well I can, I can kind of sacrifice those other things for this, for this. There's no sacrifice at all. It was, it was, it tasted great, easy to make. And so after that, I thought, okay, similar to your guys thought, I thought, okay, well maybe I should try it. Like I'm in my kitchen, so maybe I should try this next time I go out hiking.

And that's what I did. I like, you like you said, as I got older, I don't like to carry very much stuff. I do carry a pack, a a backpack with all sort of like little things in case I need them, you know, like a small, you know, like a first aid kid just in case or whatever, you know, cause I hike with my kids and, but I try to keep it down to the minimum snacks and things like that. But I do like to have a cup of coffee. And like I said, there's a place where you go to sometimes where it.

Like you can oversee the city of Los Angeles all the way. Sometimes if it's a clear day, you can almost see the ocean from where we are. And so it's just a beautiful, but you're in the mountains and you're surrounded by wood. So it's kind of a really interesting area to go to. anyhow, we thought I'd try it there. And I have to tell you that I was, think,

Alexander (29:22.059)
Yeah.

Alexander (29:27.615)
Mm.

Ramon Vela (29:40.206)
There's something about hiking and expending your energy that kind of makes you hungry or makes you, know, like, makes you really, like food or drink can be very satisfying after you go for a hike. And so you sit there and you're kind of just like, you're spent a little bit, you're relaxing and you're kind of like quiet and just listening to everything. And a really good cup of coffee is like a godsend in those times.

Alexander (29:54.419)
Absolutely.

Alexander (30:08.791)
you

Ramon Vela (30:09.291)
And I'm telling you that it was, it was just amazing. So I was thinking like, wow, I could like, can see bringing this, you know, every time we go on a hike, like I can see this being, being an essential part of those things that I bring in my backpack and it doesn't take up that much room. So, you know, I just, have like a, I have a couple of these, you know, these metal coffee cups, that I take with me. then, wow, I was just.

I was just blown away. So like, I'm super impressed by, cause when you look at this, you're thinking, okay, I don't know what this is going to taste like. I'll just be honest, but it tastes good. It tastes really, really good. I was very surprised at the taste. It was so good. Um, so I'm very happy with it. Uh, uh, I don't, I know I'm, being a little bias here. I'm my personal testimony of your folks, but, um, but wow, I was really impressed. So.

Now let's get to some of those, um, some of those other challenges. Cause I would imagine like me, I was a little apprehensive about this and thinking like, you know, how can a, how can a good cup of coffee come out of this? Um, has it been, is that an anomaly? Um, is it, is this a sale of, uh, educational sale? Is it something people have to kind of learn about more? Um,

Alexander (31:20.127)
Mm.

Ramon Vela (31:35.05)
What have been those obstacles in terms of like the customer wanting to buy this?

Alexander (31:43.605)
So it's been...

Very helpful, funny enough. So when we launched, were kind of riding the wave of this new trend, which is called Chaos Packaging.

And even though I wouldn't consider our product to be Chaos Packaging, it kind of got mentioned a lot in that context. maybe just to explain, Chaos Packaging is basically a product you know in a packaging that is unusual. And with that, you create buzz. So sun cream in a shaving bottle or liquid death, water in a can.

Ramon Vela (32:33.794)
Mm-hmm.

Alexander (32:34.083)
that kind of stuff. So with that, we got mentioned in like a ton of press. So that was very, very helpful. And then of course, like you said, it, it's stops you while scrolling, you know, you're like, well, what, what is that? I have to check it out. What is that? So if we would put it in a more, like a, container, which is more people are more used to, think it would be, it would get half the coverage that it's getting right now.

Ramon Vela (32:39.374)
Hmm.

Alexander (33:04.091)
But as I said, I wouldn't consider us Chaos Packaging because in Chaos Packaging, very often there's not much benefit in putting it in that different packaging. But I feel with us, the packaging has been chosen very specifically to add benefits in the use case that it's designed to be in. But still, we benefited a lot from that. And it's funny because the aluminium tube is...

completely different in different cultures. So let's say in Scandinavia, you will go to a retailer and you will have shelves full of food in aluminum tubes. Like there you can get everything from fish paste, meat paste, caviar, mayonnaise, everything comes in aluminum tubes. Versus in the US, basically nothing comes in aluminum tubes, maybe toothpaste. So it was really, really interesting to see the reactions of those different cultures.

on the tube. but back to your point when it comes to education, did we need to do a lot of education? I would say no. Because if somebody is in that outdoor context, they will understand it. And we learned this through various events we did where people will come up to the booth and they'd be like, what is this? And you just give them the two and they look at it. They're like, this is coffee and it's.

Is it like concentrated? and I just mix it with water? Like, people will understand by themselves what it is. Funny enough, obviously, we kept the design of the tube reduced to the max. We had that coffee cup icon. It says coffee on it. There's not much on there which can distract from the fact that this is coffee. So that helped a lot.

Yeah, and just in general, it helped us a lot to get that first buzz, being in that very specific, unique packaging. But yeah, mean, the thing is with this, when you bring in a new form of product in a very traditional, broadly known category as coffee is, people will either love it or they hate it. Those are the two categories of people we have engaging with our content. They're either like blown away, they love it.

Ramon Vela (35:27.01)
Mm-hmm.

Alexander (35:29.961)
Or they just absolutely hate it. And I think what has been important for us is we never said this is going to replace your espresso machine. know, that was never like, for some people it does, you know, funny enough, but we never said we're better than your existing coffee solution. We're just designed for a very specific use case. And I would say in that use case, we're one of the, one of the best ways to

enjoy coffee. And some people also like to enjoy it while traveling and are at home or at the office. But you see a lot of new brands coming into the space doing products where they're like, you can throw away all your existing stuff. Like this is the new one and that's perfect, you know. And with that, you obviously offend a lot of people in the space and you know, people in the coffee space are very particular about their coffee. And I think we were very

Ramon Vela (36:14.19)
Mm-hmm.

Alexander (36:26.731)
Maybe delicate is the wrong word, but we were very careful with how we communicate this in the space. And I think we therefore got invited with open arms into this coffee space to share our idea. like, I just had a interview with a specialty coffee podcast a few weeks ago, and there was like super interested in super welcoming about us to share the story just because we're not like aggressively trying to

push our product into the market and be like, that's the new thing. You can throw everything else out of the window. You know, I think that's, that was super important along the way.

Ramon Vela (37:01.582)
Right.

And, and, know, have to say to another, here's another personal testimonial is I've tried a lot of instant coffees along the way. and, and so I have to say that I've tried it. I mean, I've tried all sorts of different coffees. There's, there's, there's, you know, there's the big players out there, Folgers, all that kind of stuff here in the United States and so forth. I mean, these are conglomerate coffees and so, I mean, I've tried them all.

And I have to say that, that this is better than a lot of the stuff that's out there. now I have to go into, you know, find my own coffee, you know, that that's, that's me. Like I like, I'm very particular about what coffee I have. you know, I want something good in the morning. I don't want, you know, I don't want the cheap stuff. I mean, I will drink the cheap stuff if I have to, but I mean, but you know, you, you want a good cup of coffee. And I just felt like,

this is so much better than a lot of the stuff that's out there. It tastes good. And what also struck to me, because obviously we had the pre-interview and we talked about it, but what struck me too was that I felt like this coffee, like this formulation, that it was created by people who love coffee.

Alexander (38:06.794)
Yeah.

Ramon Vela (38:30.19)
Like it wasn't just like, Hey, this is a cool idea. We think this could, you know, we can sell it to the outdoor market or we can sell it to this or that. was genuinely, I genuinely felt with the presentation and the packaging and the taste that I, I felt that this was created by someone who loved coffee. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know how to express that, but it just, it just felt like, you know what? They did a really good job like this. Cause again, I didn't know how it was going to taste. And I was.

Alexander (38:36.799)
Hmm.

Alexander (38:49.949)
Yeah, totally.

Ramon Vela (38:59.47)
I was a little apprehensive and I tasted it and I thought, wow, I was like really, really pleasantly surprised that it tasted good. And then I started like trying to mix it, you know, like the next cup I tried to do a little bit more water and this, you know, kind of like found my, my sweet spot there. But again, I just came away thinking that, that this wasn't just some novel product. Um, it was a product made by people who love coffee and who love

Alexander (39:15.913)
Mm.

Ramon Vela (39:29.29)
Again, and this is another one, love sipping coffee in the outdoors. there's not like, again, there's nothing like it when you're sitting out there and it could be early morning and you're just looking out into a view or whatever, you're sipping a cup of coffee. It's like, there's nothing better than that. It's like, that's, that's my temple there, you know? And I felt like it was, you guys were, you, you're compadres, you know, like you guys were,

Alexander (39:47.178)
Yeah.

It's...

Ramon Vela (39:55.915)
You you knew, understood that that, guess that's what I'm saying. You understood that feeling.

Alexander (40:00.605)
Absolutely. Absolutely. mean, look, when we started the development of the product, we had to decide, are we going to make a cheap version of this or are we going to make the best possible version of this? Because if you look at coffee, the price range is incredible. Like you can get a cup of instant coffee for a few cents. Like literally for 10 cents, you can get a cup of instant coffee.

versus in some specialty coffee shops, you pay like $15 for a cup of coffee. And that's like, it's crazy to me that there's such a...

broad range of price difference. And therefore I don't understand when people sometimes comment on our products, they're like, well, it's way too expensive. I can get like this instant coffee for 10 cents. Like, yeah, of course you can. You know, it's like comparing a Bentley with like, with like a really, really cheap crappy old car. And so we said, look, if we're making this, if it's made in Switzerland, we want to use the best ingredients we can find.

And therefore also the products we're using, we're using, as I said, highly concentrated coffee, which is brewed. And then we extract the water from it, leaving us with this highly concentrated kind of coffee syrup. And these are Fairtrade Arabica beans from Columbia. And it's like the best you can get in that category. know, we could, we could have made the product.

Ramon Vela (41:37.422)
Hmm.

Alexander (41:43.115)
a third of the price, easy, while changing ingredients. But we didn't. We really took the best we can find. Even the sugar. mean, the sugar, you would say, yeah, sugar, doesn't matter. Sugar, sugar. The sugar is beetroot sugar, which has grown like a few kilometers next to our production site. And it's also made in Switzerland. You know, like it's the small differences, I guess, which make the product great.

Ramon Vela (42:05.506)
Mm-hmm.

Alexander (42:13.265)
And we wanted, I couldn't agree more with you that that moment when you spend time outdoors, the longer you spend time outdoors, the more intense that moment gets. mean, I was in the army. mean, we would dream of food all day. but that moment is so amazing when you finally reached your destination, you can sit down and even if you're just making like a cup of ramen, you know, that ramen will taste better than any.

Ramon Vela (42:40.578)
Yeah.

Alexander (42:41.163)
Meal you can get at a restaurant on a normal day. So we really said like, that moment is a moment we can, we can really kind of tap into and make like the best possible cup of coffee to kind of fit that moment. Um, so yeah, that was really our mission from, day one. And I think, uh, the, first product really, really hit that well. And as I mentioned before, we have, we have more flavors coming and I think they all kind of.

hit that spot in a different way, but all kind of with the same mission of really making that magic moment after your hike or during your hike, just even more better.

Ramon Vela (43:19.66)
Yeah, well, I'm telling you that the coffee, the quality is really, it's really, really good. And as I mentioned to you, it just feels like whoever created this product, at least the coffee component of it. I mean, I love the design and everything, but the coffee component of it, I felt like this was created with love because it tastes really good. Because again, I've tasted those instant packs or whatever and...

They're not very good. know, most of the time I don't think I've ever tasted one that was good, but you know, so you get used to that. think, okay, well, this is not very good. It's kind of like made quickly or whatever. And no, this is, this is not the case. I want to dive into the products. but before I do that, let me ask you a couple, one, question around entrepreneurship. Cause I, this is fascinating. I cover entrepreneurs all the time and.

Typically we cover products. Sometimes they're unique, but they're in like these markets that their products are not like out of the ordinary unique. This one I feel is really interesting because it was really like, unless, except for those examples you gave, there wasn't really nothing like this out there. And I had never seen anything like this. And I kind of feel like it appeals to so many different types of people, but you know, obviously those who are outdoors is a big one. And then

Alexander (44:22.719)
Mm.

Ramon Vela (44:42.028)
you know, then how people will have used it, which is interesting. We'll end with that in a second, but that's fascinating. But starting a company with an idea is one thing, but studying a company with an idea that really no one really has tried before or done before, that's hard. So for other entrepreneurs who are trying to do something similar, who have a new product and

innovators, inventors, however you want to look at it, and they want to bring a product to market, is there anything that you would recommend, any lessons that you've learned that potentially can save people time or money perhaps?

Alexander (45:28.949)
So many. I mean, we're in a time of age where there's tools which really, really help you out in that phase. So I would say the first one is like I already mentioned before, is that crowdfunding aspect of things. Because you can, creating a crowdfunding campaign isn't rocket science, you know, like.

You will, you will know somebody who can make a video. can write some copy, you know, you can make some visuals. That's not, it's not that difficult anymore in these days, you know, and to get that very first validation of if somebody is actually interested in it. And, know, you don't have to, you don't have to stress out when it comes to then delivering the product. You can say in the campaign, look, you will get it in six months or whatever it is that takes. seen campaigns which says you'll get it in two years, you know, like that's, that's fine.

People are just to get that first proof of concept that people are actually interested in before you take your entire life savings and like do the MOQ of the production because very often that MOQ is very high and you know, you've got to quite a lot of cash down to do that. So we, we placed our order for the first production after the crowdfund, you know, of course we spent money to, you know, kind of

create the video and the image and stuff, but it could have been much worse without that if we would have to pay for the first production. And the crowdfund allowed us to pay to cover that first production. That was amazing. So that's something I can really, really recommend. And there's so many great platforms for all kinds of industries and needs. So I think there's one for everybody there. The second one is...

Try to get-

Alexander (47:27.499)
working prototypes as soon as possible. If there's not like a gigantic investment required for them. So in our case, as I mentioned, this agency was able to make us prototypes. And at first they made us one tube. And then after that meeting, we were like, Hey guys, like, can you make us more of this? You know, and they're like, yeah, sure. How much do you need? Like 10 kilos. So they made us 10 kilos of paste. We ordered like unprinted tubes and hand-filled them.

and then send them out to people. So there's a big outdoor chain here in Switzerland where we just contacted them and be like, hey, can we just show you something? Like, it's not even about if you want it or not yet. It's just like, can we get your seven cents on it? Is this something the outdoor industry wants? So we went there, we showed our presentation, we showed them the coffee. And the guy actually said like, look, I want to be your first customer.

And we had like a hand-filled tube, which was like that big and it was like a mess when we prepared it. And so that was super, super helpful. and yeah, I mean, look, I think.

Alexander (48:40.181)
There's also a fun way that's even cheaper. if that's all too expensive, you create basically fake meta ads saying, this is the coffee in the tube. Order here. And then when somebody clicks order here, it's just like a type form where they can put in their email and say, go on the wait list. We'll contact you when it's ready. And then maybe you're not sure if you want to make a

Ramon Vela (48:51.458)
Mm-hmm.

Alexander (49:07.743)
with sugar without sugar, then do an ad with sugar, do an ad without sugar and see which one performs better. know, it's like, there's such lean ways to test these ideas before you kind of put your entire life savings into them. Because to be honest, it will probably require your entire life saving to get off the ground. So make sure it's validated before you do that.

Ramon Vela (49:11.594)
Yeah.

Ramon Vela (49:27.298)
Yeah, those are great advice. And you know, as wise as those are, I often have run into people who create products and who even myself who I've seen so many different products now, sometimes I look at those products and I think, don't even know like people people buy that I'm not even really sure. And I know people who

go and do production runs and everything and really haven't had any validation. And I just like, I wish you the best. It's scary. But yeah, no, this is fantastic. Okay. So let's say somebody wants to start their journey with, you know, with, with your brand. They're fascinated by this conversation. And so

Alexander (50:01.513)
Yeah, scary.

Ramon Vela (50:22.7)
where do you want them to start? So here I got the website up. This is a beautiful, beautiful website. I love it. Where do you want them to go? So the website is no normal, but while they're here, they love this idea of the coffee and they love how you describe the coffee. And feel free to fill in any gaps that you would like.

Alexander (50:33.067)
Thank you, guys.

Ramon Vela (50:52.268)
Where do they start? Where do they go? What are the different SKUs and the products that you have that they should start with?

Alexander (50:59.445)
So yeah, I mean, like you said, the website is definitely a great place to go to understand a bit more about the company and the products. We are most active on Instagram and there the handle is no normal co's and no normal co. And there you will find a lot of behind the scenes stories of us kind of hustling and building the company and sharing insights of what worked and what didn't. So I think.

especially for your listeners that might be extra interesting. And yeah, as you can see here, we're also available on Amazon since a bit more than a month now, which is also really exciting. So if you want a fast delivery, you can order NoNormal through Amazon. And also, Philip and I, we're both really active on LinkedIn. We like to share there a bit more the business part of things.

So you can definitely follow us both on LinkedIn. And yeah, mean, those three channels are basically our main channels where you can find everything about the brand. Then talking about the available products, as you can see here, it's the Dark Roast, which is currently available. By the time this goes live, we will have launched two new flavors. One is going to be called Classic Black, which is going to be the same roast as the current one.

just without sugar. So that's going to be really stronger. You will have more coffee per tube because we exchange the sugar with coffee. And the second one will be called Sweet Black, which is basically the same product as the Dark Roast. So we have a new tube, same with the Classic Black, which is going to be made out of 100 % recycled aluminum. So by that, we can reduce the footprint of the packaging hugely.

And that's something we're really proud of. That's something we wanted to have from day one, but some things you just get with scale, unfortunately.

Ramon Vela (53:01.902)
Yeah, yeah. Now, and I've heard that that's a story that for many times where people would like to do better, but unfortunately the cost is prohibitive. So, and I left it here because I just want people to know how easy it is. You you just squeeze a little bit into a teaspoon, you put the hot water in, you stir, and then you enjoy. I mean, it's really, really simple to use. And then you mentioned that people are using it in all sorts of different

ways, which I honestly, I hadn't even thought about that. But I'm really interested in mixing it with peanut butter because that's what you said. And then when you were speaking earlier, for some reason, I thought about mixing it with avocado, you know, because, a lot of people like to mix avocado on their toast and things like that. It's very popular around here in California. And I just thought, I wonder what that tastes like.

Alexander (53:35.742)
Yeah.

Alexander (53:47.688)
sh-

Alexander (53:52.202)
Yeah.

Alexander (53:59.435)
Anything is possible. Anything is possible. I haven't heard that one before yet, to be honest, but I wouldn't be surprised if it works. Maybe a small detail with the Ozone Mist. Some people, it's hard to understand how much coffee is in one tube. And that's something which is pretty cool because you have actually 20 cups per 100 grams of tube. So it's like a tube you can take on the plane even, and you will have 20 cups with you.

Ramon Vela (54:00.91)
Ha ha ha.

Ramon Vela (54:14.947)
Yeah.

Alexander (54:28.747)
Flavor, the classic black will even have 30. So that's quite a lot of coffee in a very, very small form factor.

Ramon Vela (54:36.108)
Yeah, yeah. Well, like I said, the product is amazing. I love this little graphic here. Who are these ambassadors? Are you encouraging folks to spread the message for you?

Alexander (54:47.645)
Yeah, so we have four ambassadors right now and all of them have reached out to us. And I think that's a really important aspect of our ambassadors because they reached out to us saying how much they love the product and they would like to collaborate. So maybe Matt Wallace is a really interesting example. So he's a jungle exhibition guide living in Suriname.

South America. It's basically a country which is, I think, 99 % covered by jungle. And he basically broke two world records crossing the jungle by foot and canoe. And by chance, they had our coffee with them. And they literally, and I think it took them like 46 days. And after that, they wrote us saying like, hey guys, I think we wouldn't have made it without your coffee.

Ramon Vela (55:30.594)
Hmm.

Alexander (55:45.235)
And the way they used it was so funny and nice to hear for us because they had like only a few tubes with them because again, lightweight was everything. And three times a day they would like all huddle. think there were five guys that would huddle. Everybody would have like a little finger full of the pace. And that would be like their ritual, you know? And like you said, the moment you look forward to food is so, I mean, the harder the exhibition is, the more you probably look forward to that moment.

And they really had like three moments in the day to look forward to during that massive grind. And that was those, that coffee experience with, with no normal. So when he told us that story, we were like, man, you have to like, you have to become an ambassador for us. It's just too good to be true.

Ramon Vela (56:21.837)
hehe

Ramon Vela (56:30.3)
that's fantastic. And there's so there's a program in place. Is that correct?

Alexander (56:36.523)
There's a programming place, if you're interested, can definitely reach out to us. And yeah, depending on the fit, we can discuss if that could work or not. But yeah, as you can see, the ambassadors are very... They're spread across the board. Like, one is the jungle exhibition guide, one, there two girls which are currently rowing from Peru to Australia, which is also pretty crazy.

Tom is currently walking across the PCT. Then you have Florian and Stephanie, which are driving with a Defender from Zurich to Pakistan. So there's like a really broad bandwidth of ambassadors and that also kind of shows you that the coffee is also like, you can use it everywhere.

Ramon Vela (57:24.782)
Yeah, well, I love that that you have that program and yeah, it's just amazing. And I was just going to mention too is the you know, the sugar that you we've talked about the sugar, but you really don't have a lot of sugar in this. I mean, it's it is, you know, fairly tame in terms of the sugar in it. And I have to be honest with you, Again.

And my expectations were low because I just never tried anything like this. And I'm just being straightforward. I just wasn't sure what it was going to taste like. But I've come away thinking like this has been created with a lot of love, a lot of care, a lot of feeding. And I'm just really impressed by the product. then the coffee itself tastes really good without

anything in it. mean, if you're like a cream, if you put cream in your coffee, you can, guess, but you don't have to. And it also has a really good taste. And I could tell that it has a little bit of sugar in it, but it's not overwhelming. It's not very powerful. And I think it actually adds a little bit something to the coffee itself. But when I look at the nutritional panel there, it's really not a lot of sugar. I mean, it's

Alexander (58:47.144)
Yeah.

Ramon Vela (58:47.982)
It is actually, you know, like if someone's worried about sugar or anything like that, there's really not a lot in here, but it gives it just this like little bit of a difference. And, and for me, I really like it. I, I, I, I want to try the other versions when you come out, but the, this one I feel like is perfect. Like this version right here for the vast majority of people is perfect because, it has.

Alexander (59:12.746)
Yeah.

Ramon Vela (59:15.694)
Like I said, you can have it with cream or without cream. You can have it cold or hot water, but it has a great taste to it and it does the job. It definitely does the job. yeah, I was very, very impressed. So you guys did a fantastic job.

Alexander (59:31.115)
I think that's also an interesting learning when it comes to sugar. It doesn't really matter how much sugar is in there. The fact that there is sugar is what either makes or breaks the sale with coffee. Because a lot of coffee drinkers are like, I will never drink my coffee with sugar. And it doesn't matter how much sugar. So that's been a learning also when it comes to.

communication, know, like we say, we always say slightly sweeten, lightly sweetened. but a lot of like espresso, aphanados are like, no. So that's also why we were bringing out the classic black, which is really like. Pure coffee. It also thing is it doesn't work that well anymore as a spread because I mean, it's pure, highly concentrated coffee. It's intense as a spread.

And this one is a bit lighter. It's tastier with the sugar as a spread. So there's pros and cons for both flavors, for sure.

Ramon Vela (01:00:34.188)
Yeah. Well, and I get that component of it. I know there's people who don't, who don't want the sugar at all, but I guess my point is, that even though there's sugar in it, it's not overwhelming. And it's not, doesn't, it's like, can barely tell other than it adds just like a little bit of a slight difference to the taste. but it's not overwhelming. Like I would like lightly, lightly sweeten to me, maybe be

too much. mean, like that they may even sound like there's more than there is because we're really isn't. I mean, look at it. It's like 1.5 grams of added sugar.

Alexander (01:01:11.621)
The thing is, you, so the current tube only has the nutritional informations per tube, not per serving. And that's another learning we made is, so the nutritional values per serving, because nobody's going to eat the entire tube, because the entire tube has 30 grams of sugar in it. But with one tube, you can make a ton of coffee, you know?

So broke down to the cup, it's like, as you said, it's like half a teaspoon or a third of a teaspoon of sugars. That's really not much. So in the new packaging, we have now nutritional information per serving on it, like you see in the website. And that really kind of clears up the case.

Ramon Vela (01:01:54.136)
Yeah.

Yeah, so this is fantastic man. I want to be respectful of your time and and so we'll make sure to have this link on our podcast description as well as your Instagram link. Again, the website is nonormal.com. Nonormal.com. No, the word no, the word normal.com is the website and and I highly encourage you to visit and or give it a try. So.

This has been fantastic, man. We went over a little bit of our time, but I was just, like I said, fascinated by this product. This has been a pleasure, and I can't wait to see what else you guys come up with in terms of the new products. And then, of course, down the line, I can't imagine what you guys are gonna be doing, but this is really, like I said, think anyone who is an outdoors person,

Alexander (01:02:30.792)
No worries.

Ramon Vela (01:02:53.998)
Or anyone really from my perspective who likes to have coffee on the go is travels a lot. Um, when, whenever you go to a hotel, typically the coffee is terrible. Like I don't even touch it. Like I have to go find my own cafe somewhere to have some. And this is a great, um, alternative, uh, take it with you while you're traveling. know a lot of people who are listening to the show, they travel a lot.

Alexander (01:03:07.36)
Yeah.

Ramon Vela (01:03:21.174)
And so I would definitely make sure that this is in your luggage when you travel. But man, thank you. Beyond that, this has been a pleasure having you on the show.

Alexander (01:03:32.523)
Thank you so much. The title was on my side.

Ramon Vela (01:03:35.778)
Well, everyone out there, like I said, we're to have the link to the website and to the Instagram account on our podcast description, which you can find on Apple and Spotify and pretty much anywhere you listen to podcasts. Simply type in the story of a brand show. You should be able to find it beyond that. always say, stay sane, stay safe, stay healthy. And but I also just want to encourage you go to the website, sign up for the newsletter.

stay up to date on their promotions, on their products and everything else, probably the best way to do it and then follow them on Instagram because you really have to take a look at this product. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. My expectations were low and I'll just be straightforward because I haven't been a fan of instant coffee, I haven't been a fan of those little packets that you see in there. I mean, they're good for like if you have nothing else but the coffee when I tasted it and I just literally just finished.

a cup while we were speaking. It tastes delicious. It's easy to make. And something I learned today that I did not know, which is that you can use it as a spread. So now I'm going to try that and then I'm going to report back on a video on that. But I never heard of that and that's pretty cool. So the product is one that I can just say, you could tell that this is made with love and with caring and with feeding.

Alexander (01:04:42.795)
See you.

Ramon Vela (01:04:59.27)
And so it's not just like a quick product that someone just had an idea and just brought it out. This you could tell was made with love. And so I can truly, truly appreciate that. By the way, Alexander, the whole made in Switzerland, actually, I think that's a really cool thing because I think like my impression of Switzerland is that they're high quality products. And so like, I'm sure that that played a part in this, but

Alexander (01:05:13.695)
Yeah.

Alexander (01:05:21.376)
Yeah.

Ramon Vela (01:05:25.88)
When I saw that, I thought, that's kind of cool. There's a minimalist design on this. It's made in Switzerland. The quality's got to be good. So that was something that when I saw in the box, I thought, I love that part of the packaging. But anyone else, please go visit the website. And this falls under our category, which is products with buying, brands with supporting. So definitely go give them a try. So, hey, and thank you again.

Alexander (01:05:50.792)
Awesome.

Ramon Vela (01:05:53.998)
And so one last thing, everyone. We've all been going through a lot of stuff, pandemic, the economy, geopolitical wars, politics, politicians, all sorts of different things, tariffs, whatever it is. And so the world seems a little crazy. So let's do ourselves a favor and just remember that everyone is going through something. Might be anxiety, might be financial issues, might just be there's just so much stuff going on is driving them crazy.

Let's just remember everyone is going through something and if we can just simply be a little kinder to each other, I know we can make this human experience a better one. Beyond that, thank you from the bottom of my heart for listening to another episode of the story of a brand.