Misery & Mayhem - The Rise of a Performance-Driven Oatmeal Brand

Rose Hamilton: [00:00:00] Hello listeners to the story of a brand excited to be here today with you for another episode. I'm Rose Hamilton and I am going to be your host for the day. And as many of you know, I absolutely love to bring emerging brands onto the show in the CPG space and especially when they're in the health and wellness arena, which we practice and follow and, and really focus on day to day.

So it is my absolute pleasure to bring a client of mine onto the show today, and they are a brand, if you haven't heard of them yet, soon to be coming to your home called Misery and Mayhem. So as you can imagine from the pouch, we're talking about a very specialized oatmeal. And today I'm joined with Scott Turner and Nick Legia, who are the co-founders of this amazing brand.

And so with that said, I welcome both of you guys to the show. So glad you're here. 

Scott Turner: Thanks Rose. Thanks for having us. 

Rose Hamilton: Yeah, because I didn't be here. Yeah, I'm excited to have you. It's been such [00:01:00] an honor to watch you build this and, and really spend the last couple of years putting all of your thoughts together.

And one of the things that impresses me so much of, and, and one of the main reasons why I wanted to work with you is that you truly understand the value of building the differentiation behind a new emerging brand. But then more importantly. Doing some amazing storytelling and really reaching the hearts and the minds of your core customer.

And I love how you actually got this business started. And for those of you who are listening, it's even more interesting because this is the perfect example of bootstrapping a business. And doing your day job while you're getting something up and running and really following a passion and seeing a dream come to fruition here.

So guys, why don't you just do a little intro in terms of how you got started in this business and the problem you saw. 'cause I think it's really interesting and how you went about attacking it to build this amazing business. 

Scott Turner: Yeah, absolutely. So, ~um, ~yeah. I'm Scott Turner and [00:02:00] I'm the CEO and one of the co-founders along with Nick.

Misery, mayhem. And, you know, I grew up in Northern California,~ uh,~ led a pretty active lifestyle growing up as a lot of kids do. ~Um, ~and then did about a year of college, figured out it wasn't for me, and ended up,~ uh,~ joining the Marine Corps when I was 19. And I spent four years there,~ uh,~ enlisted. And then after that,~ uh,~ immediately started working at Peloton.

~Um, ~and I was on kind of the internal tech side of the company, and that's where I met Nick. And so, ~uh, ~for us, you know, I'll let Nick give his background too, but I. Nick and I became friends at work, and then we started working out together at the same gym. And at that time it was kind of funny because we were both finding our way back into fitness.

~Uh, ~you know, I'd gotten outta the Marine Corps and kind of took a break from working out. I was a little like, you know, I've been doing this for a long time. ~Uh, ~why don't I, you know, enjoy the civilian life and, and kind of take my foot off the pedal and then realize that that wasn't the best [00:03:00] thing for me.

And so. Nick and I started going to the gym together and we started working out of this gym in Manhattan that was very no frills. ~Um, ~it was a dungeon basement gym, no windows. Didn't smell too great. It was a lot of bodybuilders. It was not, it was not like an Equinox type gym at all, frankly. ~Um, ~it was bare bones, but,~ uh,~ it was affordable and it was awesome.

And, and Nick came there with me one day and there's a trainer that I had known that, that trained people there, and really intense guy who's actually an ex con. ~Um, ~and I had no intention of training with him, frankly. And, and neither did Nick. We just went there to get a workout together. ~Uh, ~'cause we were both trying to get back into the gym and he said, Hey, why don't you train with me today?

And we were kind of hesitant and we were like, you know, oh, I don't know. You know, we're just like, we're just trying to get a workout as buddies, whatever. And he is like, no, come train with me today. Like, [00:04:00] you don't have to pay for it. Whatever. And we're like, okay. And we got absolutely thrashed. ~Um, ~and, and this guy just did things that we couldn't do for ourselves basically in the gym.

And so long story short, as we started working out with him,~ um,~ and having these really intense workouts and our friendship form there,~ um,~ and you know, finding that perfect recovery meal was such an integral part of it, like. It's, it's a hundred percent training and it's a hundred percent nutrition when you're on that.

It's not really like a 50 50 thing. It's, it's, you have to go all in on everything. And so, ~um, ~you know, Nick and I started mixing whey protein in with our oats and maybe a couple other things. And you know, it was funny when we went out and looked around at what was available in the market, we kind of found a lot of.

You know, lower amounts of protein than we would expect, and a lot of sugar in oatmeal. ~Um, ~and then on the other side, there were some like meal [00:05:00] replacement type things, but they weren't really fitting what we were looking for. We were looking for,~ uh,~ high quality ingredients. High quality protein, especially,~ um,~ organic oats, 20 grams of protein.

~Um, ~and something that would like, you know, we'd work out at around 6:00 AM and then go straight into the office. And so we're really, really looking for something that would carry us through our first, you know, handful of meetings before we got to lunch. ~Um, ~because you get to the office and then you're kind of walking around the kitchen and you're snacking and it's not the best thing.

And you might get like a sugar crash at 11:00 AM and you're still not to lunch. ~Um, ~and you can really lose steam when you work out early in the morning. You can lose steam,~ uh,~ you know, pretty quickly in mid, in, in like the mid-morning timeframe, like 10:11 AM.~ Um, ~and so, yeah, I'll, I'll hand it over to Nick so he can kind of introduce himself as well too, but that's, that's really, you know, the, the abridged version of, of, you know, how we met and then this problem that we wanted to solve and, and kind of the daily life that we were living at that time.

So. [00:06:00] 

Nicholas Lagonia: Yeah. So, ~um, ~yeah, Nikki, I'll 

Scott Turner: hand it over. 

Nicholas Lagonia: Yeah, thanks Scott. So, yeah, so I'm originally from upstate New York, so, ~uh, ~my family actually owned an Italian restaurant there, so I've been in the restaurant and food world my whole life. So, ~um, ~I was an athlete in high school, but I. When I went to college, that really fell off.

~Um, ~you know, I gained a ton of weight and so that was kind of that part of that journey. And when I went, so I started at Peloton in 2014 and that's where I had met Scott. ~Um, ~and you know, during that time I, I'd worked very closely with the instructors and I did content and programming and marketing, and I really started to like kind of buy in a little bit more to these healthier lifestyles and kind of changing a lot of my own habits, right?

And, you know, I had no idea truly, I knew how to eat a lot. I knew how to eat well, but. You know, I really didn't understand better for you and, and the best types of nutrition for myself. So as Scott had mentioned, you know, and it's funny right? I'm this producer, right, working with instructors, but I'm myself am really more of just like the entertainment side of it, right?

So I really needed to also learn the other side of it, right? So health and wellness, so. Yeah, it was about, you [00:07:00] know, you know, at towards the end of our time there, Scott is like, you gotta come to this gym. Like he had said, and he, come on, give it a shot, give it a shot. And, and I give him a lot of credit, you know, to get me in there, to get me super outta my comfort zone, to walk into this guy maybe yelling at me.

And, and I fell in love with it. You know, it was something that I was so committed to at the time, and it was an amazing, obviously bonding, but to start to see the importance of eating well and having an amazing breakfast. Right? And, and so one of the things that. As we had started to go down that journey is like, I had no idea how to eat.

I didn't know. So, but I definitely knew as we started to learn that, that the best way was, was oatmeal and it really became an amazing way for us to get protein in. And, but that's where Scott had mentioned, we're like, hang on, there's gotta be a better way of doing this. Right? There has to be a way that can get what we need in there.

So, ~um, ~well, Nick, 

Rose Hamilton: and correct me if I'm wrong, oatmeal and protein and the combination of them both say more about that because as someone. A fellow gym rat at six 30 every morning. ~Uh, ~well maybe [00:08:00] not every morning, but many mornings training with my trainer. I always have struggled with figuring out what's the right fuel for it.

Is it a protein bar? Is it a pre-workout? Is it a post? This is not an easy challenge, but ironically enough, when I met you guys, as I shared with you, I had asked the gym owner. And my gym has no frills, let me tell you. It is the dungeon. You describe all bodybuilders in there. And I asked the owner who's clearly been working at this for a long time, and the first thing he said was, well, oatmeal, you gotta have oatmeal.

And I said, yeah, but what about protein? Because the two need to go hand in hand. And he's like, oh, eat a bunch of meat later and eat chicken later. And so when you started to explain to me about the oatmeal concept, I immediately thought, well, why not Quaker Oats in the morning? ~Um, ~and protein later. So talk to me a little bit more about how important this is and what's unique about mayhem and misery.

~Um, ~and also how you got to the name mayhem and misery. 

Nicholas Lagonia: Yes. So, and I actually said 

Rose Hamilton: that backwards. [00:09:00] Let me correct myself. Misery and mayhem. Misery and mayhem. Now everyone, it's 

Scott Turner: all, it's all good. 

Nicholas Lagonia: Yeah. I'll let Scott, it happens. Oats and protein part, and then I'll take, and then I'll answer the,~ uh,~ kind of how we got to the name of the brand design as well.

Scott Turner: Yeah, so, so on the nutrition side, it's, it's multifaceted as you were, you know, referring to, and, and basically, you know, when you're training. So I, I, I think one distinction to make here is that,~ uh,~ you know, what we've made is not a. Diet supplement or a weight loss supplement, it's for people who are training, it's for people who are getting after it in the gym or they're, or they're,~ uh,~ you know, a runner or, or things like that.

It's really, Hey, I need to replenish my glycogen stores, which is what those carbohydrates from the oats are gonna help do. ~Um, ~it's gonna help you recover. And then also, you know, obviously the WHE protein is, it's fast metabolizing so. Your body [00:10:00] will ingest that whey protein and it'll help rebuild muscle and recover faster than a lot of other protein sources.

And so the thing that we love about this as a fuel source is you can have it before you work out and you can have it after. And you can have it for both too if you really want to. It kind of depends on the workout. So for example, I do ultra running. I typically have this after a run because I need to replenish everything that I've just sweat out basically.

~Um, ~I'm running up a lot of hills. The protein I need to rebuild the muscle in my legs and make sure that I'm keeping a lot of strength there so I can continue to power up those hills as I want to. And then also, again, with the glycogen stores and the carbohydrates, I need to replenish the carbs. So, you know, it's funny, there's kind of a,~ um,~ sometimes there's like a hesitancy towards carbohydrates.

~Uh, ~now that's so true. If you're eating, if you're eating,~ um,~ if you are eating a lot of [00:11:00] bread at 7:00 PM I'll agree with you on that. That's probably not the carbs that you're looking for. ~Um, ~but if you are helping your body recover with carbs and fiber like you find in oats, which are an amazing source of that.

That's exactly what you want if you're training. ~Um, ~so it's, it's, you know, it's not the same exact thing every single time. And I think that carbs kind of get lumped together. ~Um, ~and, and you've seen a lot more education around this, right? Of like sweet potato and complex carbs and things like that and the benefits of those.

And so that's why with misery and mayhem. You know, this is something that you want to either have before you work out or to recover afterwards. ~Um, ~you know, and, and, and not all carbs are built equally, right? ~Um, ~and, and granted we have, you know, relatively speaking, ~uh. Um, ~you know the amount of carbs that you would need after a workout too, right?

So we're not, we're not giving you something that, hey, unless you're going and running a marathon, this doesn't make sense. It makes sense for the [00:12:00] everyday workout. So, you know, that's really the why behind the nutrition combo. ~Um, ~because it's multifaceted, it's flexible, it meets a lot of different lifestyles.

And again, pre post-workout, as long as you're someone who is. Doing these activities, it makes sense for you and your diet. Yes. So I'll pass it over to Nick on more of like, what, like this is a strange name for a brand in general, let alone a brand that just launched their protein oatmeal. So yeah, let Nick take that one.

Nicholas Lagonia: Yeah, and I, I think we can start at the top of all this is, which, you know, if you think about oatmeal in general and the category in general, I mean, it's. There's a lot of legacy brands that I'm sure you know, have grown up with, right? Your Quakers, your Kodiaks, right? And you also have some, of course some newer,~ uh,~ players on the block.

But for us initially with even the name and the brand design is we wanted something that was gonna captivate you, something that's gonna make you stand out, something that's gonna make you, 

Rose Hamilton: and [00:13:00] I just wanna show everybody this packaging again. It could not be more clean, cleanly designed and so powerful and strong and so, but, but again, how did you get to this as a name?

I. 

Nicholas Lagonia: So we were during the workouts during the day, and it's truly this, and it kind of hit us was that is actually how we felt during those workouts. It was misery. It was mayhem. 

Rose Hamilton: Mayhem. Oh 

Nicholas Lagonia: yeah, that's what it was. We all identify with that, right? Whether you're in a gym, whether you're on a hard run. It's really that last push.

We actually are working right now on a definition of misery and mayhem in general, which is like basically. I can't do this anymore. ~Uh, ~but I guess I'm already doing it right, or I'm, I'm already working through it. It's that feeling that like middle of like, I don't know if I can get through this last push.

Ah, but I'm already here. I'm gonna get through it. Right? So that's kind of the feeling that we're, we're trying to evoke. ~Um, ~and really we also just in looking at brands in general, not even in [00:14:00] CPG, when we look at our logo, we did want something that like resonated and it was something that you would always know our brand buys so.

~Uh, ~Scott and I also bonded. We're huge music fans, so we love music. We were, and so we're like, Hey, like, let's make this packaging feel a little bit, almost like concert tour merch. Maybe make this packaging feel like a t-shirt or a label or something that you would wanna wear. So that's really kind of where all that came from.

And you know, obviously if you're walking down the shelf and you're looking at the current quick, you know, the current,~ uh,~ competitors, you are gonna stop and look and go, Hey, what, what is that? So that's really where that came from. 

Rose Hamilton: Well, and, and you know, it's, it's, it's, you are a disruptor, in essence, in this market.

So then the natural question is, where do you distribute yourselves? So you're not really, like the breakfast bar, you're not really gonna be next to special K you are not really advertised as a pre and a post-workout. So we're probably not gonna find you in a vitamin supplement store. Mm-hmm. So [00:15:00] where, when you think about a shelf, where are people gonna find you?

How would they find you? How would they discover you? 

Scott Turner: Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. And to be totally honest, it's something that we're working through right now. ~Um, ~because you know, there's an association with oatmeal, right? I. ~Uh, ~but this product is different. It's, it's, it's a different kind of oatmeal.

~Um, ~it's not, you know, it isn't Quaker. ~Uh, ~and, and, and, and we have a lot of differentiating factors. And so when we're thinking about our target demographic, it is again the people that are getting after it. ~Um, ~and, and that can be relative to whoever, right? Like getting after. It doesn't mean that you do multiple Ironmans a year.

Getting after it can mean that you're training for your first 5K. Or you're getting back into the gym like Nick and I were several years ago and things like that. And this is something that's going to be a go-to in your routine that you don't have to think about. That's easy to make, that you can just [00:16:00] rely on and you don't have to think about it.

Right? So when we think about placement,~ um. ~You know, it's a learning exercise. For us, it's about testing and kind of seeing like where does this product make the most sense? Does it make more sense next to the protein bars and the protein powders and kind of the supplements in an aisle where you're getting that shopper who's coming in and look, they're looking for protein, and then they see us on the shelf without any other oatmeals on the shelf, and they go, oh, okay.

This is my regular oatmeal and these other supplements that I'm shopping for combined into one. And then there's also the question of like, well, the modern consumer is more and more aware of the benefits of protein. Now high protein is, is obviously a big topic. So you know, can this live. In the oatmeal aisle on the shelf next to Quaker, Kodiak, et cetera.

~Um, ~[00:17:00] so, you know, the, the one of the advantages of having just launched last month and just being d two c e-com only is that we can learn these lessons and we can kind of, ~um. ~Not expose our business and have to take a huge bet right away on, Hey, we're gonna make a ton of inventory. We're gonna sign a big contract or, or, or a big innovation set or something like that.

And then,~ um,~ have to kind of figure out on the spot where this should live in a retail environment. So that's where local retail comes in. That's where more regional chains come in, that we have conversations. You know, this is a new type of product to the, the grocery store. At this point. You do not see 20 grams of protein in oatmeals in the grocery store,~ um,~ right now.

And so, you know, how can we work together to see where this fits on the shelf? So, you know, it's just, it's a learning exercise and, and we're kind of just getting started on that. But it's a great question and something [00:18:00] that we definitely,~ um,~ are gonna have to try a couple different things to figure out.

Rose Hamilton: Yeah. And I think the other thing, as I think about where it gets positioned unique, product, unique, it's almost like you building a category of the combination of protein. Although you do have Kodiak out there, but there's a combination. Mm-hmm. But something else that impressed me with how you built this, I mean, you started working on this a while ago.

It really seems like you did an awful lot of listening to consumers, and one of the things that I think can sometimes be one of the biggest mistakes for an emerging brand. Is, let's just say it's around for 10 years, eight years, 10 years, there's a strategic exit and the founders go out the door with that strategic exit and that connection to the consumer and the real problem you're originally trying to solve can get lost as you get wrapped up in the operational aspects of working in the business to figure out how to scale the business.

That constant consumer connection. It's [00:19:00] so important to understand how happy the customer is. And so part of my question comes down to also showing everybody that there are multiple flavors. So I'm very curious. You've got your, your apple cinnamon, you've got your classic, and you've got your maple. So what I'm curious about is how important is the flavoring in something like this, and how are you bringing the consumer, like your core customer, knowing your persona so well?

How are you incorporating what you've learned into how you've iterated and built this product? Because you spent, as I recall, an awful lot of time iterating to get flavoring right, and to really listen and to get it into people's hands. 

Scott Turner: Yeah, so there's, there's kind of two schools of thought here,~ uh,~ when we started out.

And,~ um,~ it's funny where we, I'm, I'm very happy with where we landed, thinking back on it, but the first school of thought was people who are looking for a lot of protein will sometimes [00:20:00] ignore taste and flavor for the sake of hitting their macro goals, right? So I need to, I need to eat, you know, 180 of protein a day.

It's not all gonna taste amazing. You know, you kind of have like that boiled chicken, broccoli, rice, bodybuilder diet that, that always gets joked around about, right? Like very bland. ~Um, ~you know, maybe you, you throw some, some chalo on it or something to make it edible, but it's like you're basically eating the same thing all day.

So that was one school of thought that we had where it's like, hey, like let's, let's really focus on nutrition. 

Rose Hamilton: Yep. 

Scott Turner: And the consumer will will show up to our door,~ um,~ with that. And so the other side of it was. People are not gonna want to eat something that doesn't taste good, especially oatmeal. ~Um, ~no matter how great your nutrition is, it's oatmeal.

If it's the first thing they're eating in the day, you know, a protein bar at 3:00 PM when you're just trying to get through the, like, I. Lunch to dinner gap, [00:21:00] you can kind of, and, and you're in the middle of your busy day and all that stuff. Like you can get away with something that might not be the exact taste that you're looking for.

Whereas some, someone's starting their day with this food, right? Like it needs to taste good to them. If it doesn't taste good to them, they're not gonna want it. ~Um, ~and so. Nick and I, you know, started working with a product developer. You know, we formed the company, like we formed the LLC, and then, you know, within a month we're working with this product developer.

And it was like, you know, having to be so critical of every single recipe sample that came in every single time because, you know, you don't want perfect to be the, the enemy of good, but at the same time, like this had to, this needed to taste good and. Putting whey protein in with oats. There's a lot of room for,~ uh,~ texture issues and, you know, ~um, ~you know, the flavor issues, especially with wanting low [00:22:00] sugar and not wanting any, like, artificial sweeteners and things like that.

~Um, ~so Nick, I don't know if you want to expand more on, on kind of our, our taste testing and the whole formulation process, but. I think very quickly what I'll say is that we realize that,~ uh,~ this is not something that we could sacrifice with on flavor and taste and texture and how much people enjoy this.

We need this to taste like the bowl of oatmeal that you've loved for your entire life, but it has the macros that you're actually looking for at the same time. 

Nicholas Lagonia: Yeah. And it's funny, it's like we also to get even more granular, right? Like we really like looked at like the type of oats that we're using, right?

And so as you start to go down that rabbit hole of like, what are the type of oats, what are the textures of those types of oats? ~Um, ~I think for us too, it's. Finding the middle ground between like covering up potentially a lot of like that protein chalky taste, which can happen in a lot of products. But then on the other end of that, what do you mass [00:23:00] that with more flavoring or potentially more sweetness?

So then before you know it, you're fine. You're fighting sort of this weird middle line between, Hey, this product tastes like dessert in the morning. Or I have so little flavoring and sugar to keep it clean, but I'm eating chalk. So I think for us, you know, and you're like eating this. So, ~um, ~I think that was from us to your earlier point, rose, really our listening to consumers and listening to PE people say, and you know, even if you listen to a lot of.

Protein product feedback across all different types of products, whether it's a bar, whether it's a drink, whether it's like that chalkiness or that aftertaste is something that we were really trying to hone in on and, and continuing actually to always take feedback on. Because at the end of the day, like, yeah, it, it is a performance product, but it is a performance product that we did wanna taste good.

You know, and it was, it was a little bit more than just clean label, you know? 

Scott Turner: Yeah. And in the early, in the early days, like when Nick and I really first started, we were about to go with the recipe developer. It's like, you know, you sit down, we buy every single oatmeal available on the [00:24:00] market, every single flavor.

~Uh, ~form factor, like all the cups, all the pouches, and have this big spreadsheet, and we just eat oatmeal all day together and figure out what do I like about this one? What do I not like? Like the texture, the tape, you know, we're like, and this is where honestly, Nick is a huge foodie and I'm not right.

Like. I'm kind of the type of person where I will, I will overlook taste and everything like that to get the macros because I, I, I'm just like, I'm not a huge foodie. ~Um, ~whereas Nick is a massive foodie and can really dial down with his palate what something needs. And so anyway, it was just a fun exercise in the beginning to like.

You know, order 30 different types of oatmeal and all these different flavors and figure out like, and then going through the comments, going through the reviews online, what do people like about it? What do they not like about it? What are they saying about it? You know, like talking to friends, getting our kind of like first and second degree connections to talk to us [00:25:00] about oatmeal, if they eat it, and what they like about their current oatmeal, what they do with it.

So anyway, it's, it was a fun process. 

Rose Hamilton: Well, that raises another really good question, which is how do you balance the short term in terms of what you wanna do with bootstrapping, the short term sales with the long term, and thinking about bringing investment into it? Because you know, you'll need capital to scale.

Mm-hmm. And for DTC, you can. Build it as they come. Whereas retail shelves wind up, you know, bigger, heavier capital investments upfront with the pos that you need to sign off on. And it's one thing to get them on shelf, but then to keep them on shelf is a whole nother discussion point. 

Scott Turner: Mm-hmm. 

Rose Hamilton: So how do you think through the realities of the short term sales need with taking the time and investing the capabilities into scaling before you need to take on expensive investment?

Scott Turner: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think for us, it really comes down to, you know, we, [00:26:00] we have a pilot run of a pretty relatively small amount of units, you know, especially compared to other companies. And it's really about how much can we extract from this pilot run in terms of learning. So like if Nick and I were to, you know, when we launched, if it were just.

Hey, let's,~ uh,~ let's get all our friends and family to buy our oatmeal,~ um,~ and, and just try to sell it, you know, by any means necessary. Sell the oatmeal. You know, it's like we're not gonna learn from that. ~Um, ~we wanna, we wanna basically get a bunch of cold buyers that come in through our funnel and see how they react and see where those kind of,~ uh,~ friction points are.

So, you know, there's a couple of different ways that we're doing things. There's, there's the sales and the marketing and the mechanics and the analytics around that and learning. Like, you know what, what should this,~ uh,~ you know, how should our e-comm experience [00:27:00] be? Is it meeting the consumer's,~ uh,~ expectations right now?

Are we too brand voice heavy? Are we too product heavy? Like, where's the balance there? Okay, so there's that whole side of the picture, right, which is very data-driven. ~Um, ~and it's messing around with a lot of copy and a lot of ads and kind of figuring out like what is our target demo attracted to, and market research and things like that.

So that's one side of it. On the other side of it, you have the brand awareness side. So, ~um, ~you know, a huge part of our strategy is we've been doing all these samplings, so we'll go to a gym or a studio or things like that, and we set up a booth and people just come and try it, right? So like that organic awareness starts to come in?

Yeah, it starts to come in as well. So, you know, you can see firsthand, are people enjoying this or not, right? Like, as much as people will say to your face, Hey, I, I really like this. Even if they don't, sometimes if you're having someone taste something in front of you for the first time, it's hard for [00:28:00] their facial exp express expression to like hide what they're thinking.

~Um. ~And so, you know, and, and Nick, I'll pass it over to you as well on this, but you know, basically it's about how much can we learn about our consumer right now with this limited inventory that we have so that with more institutional capital that we're looking for, we can say, Hey, like. We're, we're not just kind of waiting around seeing if things sell, seeing if they don't, and then taking our best guess at, at what's gonna happen next.

We're very actively involved in, you know, Hey, we've tried five different rotations of ad copy targeting this exact demographic, and this is what gets the best response, you know? Which is kind of an obvious statement, but when you've been in build mode for a year and then all of a sudden you're launched,~ uh,~ you know, you, you wanna learn as quickly as you can, and before you launch, there's only [00:29:00] so much data that you can accrue about how effective your,~ uh,~ marketing and, and all of that is.

~Um, ~so yeah, I mean, Nick,~ uh,~ would love to hear your thoughts on this too. 

Nicholas Lagonia: For us too. I think we have some, we're also as like, you know, founders that are just launched this, right? We're also instituting some, even some new policies with each other, right? Where one of them is like, Hey, like any idea we have, let's start getting outside feedback now.

You know, we built this with our heart and soul, which is amazing, and I think that's. Important as you brand build, but it's like, okay, what's the other side of this coin? I think one of that, the age old question of like, who is your perfect customer and going to talk to them is, is truly really what we're doing and, and I think as we're doing this every single day, you just learn more and more.

And I think too, for us. A sale is a sale for us at the position we're not. It's actually the right sale. Is the right sale, like getting it to that right person that can give us the most bang for our buck on the feedback, the review, what they think about our website funnel, what do they think about that ad copy, what, what do [00:30:00] they love?

What is this product helping them with? And then starting to really cultivate the community and then cultivate testimonials and reviews and, and I think that, mm-hmm. Obviously, of course. Who wouldn't wanna sell out immediately? And you're going to the, there's, we want to be as data driven and careful and growing this brick by brick.

~Um, ~'cause we just think that's, you know, for us right now, it's the best way of doing it. 'cause then we know where to shoot our shot. We know what language works. Yeah. We know what doesn't work. And,~ um,~ we really do. This community thing is very, very important to us. Like we really want to start talking to athletes and, and you know, we're actually trying to get into locker rooms right now.

~Um, ~we actually are, are talking to some nutritionists at,~ um,~ CrossFit. To get on their nutritional programs. Right. So that to us, we think goes so far because an athlete is always looking for the next best thing to get the nutrients they use and once they love it, they will tell others about it. And that NPS score is, is, is, can do so much more for us than as much as we love making funny videos.

The NPS and having, you know, a really group at a, you know, a CrossFit go, Hey, I've been using misery and maam, and [00:31:00] whatever you think about the name, the branding, the product's amazing and it's crushing it for me in the morning. So that's really where we're at. I would say, you know, at this point. 

Scott Turner: Yeah. And, and, and we have no illusions either about like the CPG space, I mean just the investor climate in general right now.

I mean, we're, we, we just launched, we're, we're.

You know, well, aimed shots are the most important thing for us because we're, we're not gonna have the breathing room to do anything but that to make this succeed,~ um,~ we're not gonna have V two and three,~ um,~ because they're just, the capital isn't available right now. So, ~um, ~we have to absolutely maximize every single sale and the learnings from that.

Every single customer trying to get the feedback, trying to develop a relationship with them. You know, Nick and I are. Personally emailing every single person that buys this product to make a connection and to try to [00:32:00] get that feedback. Because again, like Nick said, the community is a huge part of it, but,~ um,~ we can't afford to lose,~ uh,~ the data and the relationship that we can get from our customers right now with, with a small amount of inventory moving forward.

So. 

Rose Hamilton: Well, and I think that also raises a question for me around pricing and price point. Because you have your Quakers, you know, you have your Quaker Oats, you have so many different options out there. ~Uh, ~it's not infinite, but figuring out where to price yourself. And now with the price of protein going up.

~Um, ~and tariffs now coming onto the scene, how do you think about all that and what consumers will be willing to spend out of discretionary on products like these? 

Scott Turner: Yeah, that's another great question. ~Um, ~pricing in this space is especially tricky because, so there's advantages to coming into a. Kind of a, a sleepier category, right?

There's more room for [00:33:00] innovation. There's more room for brand to really come out and speak. ~Um, ~you can have,~ uh,~ a product that,~ um,~ again, is differentiated, but at the same time, when you have kind of a legacy category like this that's been around forever, there's a heavy price association with the customer when it comes oatmeal.

You can have. All the,~ uh,~ great ingredients and macros and kind of everything that you wanna put in there, but once you put oatmeal at the end. People's minds are act, you know, they're, they're basically trained to think, okay, this is what I usually pay for oatmeal, and you're telling me that this is oatmeal.

So there's a huge consumer education piece that comes in here where just like we're talking about, when we're talking about fitness and recovery and training and what your body needs. The quality of ingredients,~ um,~ you know, having organic whey protein, having organic oats, things like this, not having sucralose and [00:34:00] artificial sweeteners and sugar alcohols and all of these different things that obviously like you look at, kind of like, ~um.~

The mainstream narrative with health. Now, you know, there's a lot of awareness about the negatives of those, but specifically when it comes to price, our first,~ uh,~ point of action is that education for the customer. ~Um, ~you know, and there's things that kind of also fall in between the cracks that you really have to make sure are on a pedestal, which is like.

Your standard packet of oatmeal,~ uh,~ that you'd get from a competitor, even their protein oatmeal line. ~Uh, ~we're still a third more per serving. ~Um, ~so you're, you're getting more calories, you're getting more food. And again, this isn't a diet supplement, so. Our target demo isn't afraid of calories. They actually want them because they know that that's how they're gonna refuel from a workout.

They don't wanna do a workout and then starve themselves, right? They wanna replenish everything. ~Um. ~But candidly, there's, you know, there's a lot [00:35:00] more to explore there. And that's another learning from this pilot run that we're looking to,~ um,~ you know, really extract and be able to iterate on. And, and there's a lot of options there.

There's, you know, look, there's a certain a OV that you want to have when you're D to C eCom only. ~Um, ~you know, there's a certain. Price point, that's going to be the minimum because of,~ uh,~ packing and shipping and, and you know, we're a small startup company, so, ~um, ~you know, we can't just go under with everything.

And, and you. You know, the viability of the business is obviously a, a key here. If you're selling high volume with, with an unacceptable margin, then you don't have a business, right? And, and great, you can say that you sold x amount of dollars worth of your product, but when you're trying to grow, like we're saying, get institutional capital, like it's, the conversation is over before it started.

~Um, ~so part one again is educating our consumer and then part two is, is. Looking at the current margin that we have and seeing, okay,~ um,~ with [00:36:00] Promotionals,~ uh,~ with all these kind of different things, where is the most attractive price point for the customer? ~Um, ~and so that's a lot of what we're doing right now too.

And there's one,~ um,~ company that's the most similar to us in the space. And it's basically like, okay, the market accepts their price point. ~Um, ~so, you know, what does that look like for us? ~Um, ~and things like that. But a lot of customer education because again, once you put oatmeal on something, you know, it's kind of like, okay, why isn't this $8 for a whole box?

~Um, ~and that's just, that's, that's the onus is on us to educate the customer on that. 

Rose Hamilton: So, shifting gears just a little bit, being new founders,~ um,~ and first time around as you're building something, you've gotta have some interesting lessons learned. So I'm dying to unpack a little bit about what, in these early days, how have you learned about maintaining the [00:37:00] scrappiness and keeping the motivation going through the hard days, the challenging days.

~Um, ~and the days where you're winning because it's, it really is an entrepreneurial journey for the two of you, I'm certain. 

Scott Turner: Mm-hmm. 

Nicholas Lagonia: You want to, I'll,~ uh,~ kick this one off? Yeah, yeah, 

Scott Turner: you can. You can go first on this one. 

Nicholas Lagonia: So to be as transparent as possible, and I guess this is okay, you make a tremendous amount of assumptions about what it actually means to run these businesses.

Yes. Oh man, we crushed this packaging. Right? Or we, this flavor is awesome. Or all these other things and, and just because you've done that, that is not even close to all the considerations that actually come into this. Right? So I think for us. We've really gotten better too, at checking our ego out the door of what we think, right?

'cause you have to be passionate about your ideas and believe in what you're doing. But then also being able to, like I said, check your ego out the door and basically be like, all right, like, let's get some outside opinion on this for a second. Let's do a little bit more research. [00:38:00] We might love this idea today, but we might not like it tomorrow.

So like, let's take our time. And like, you know, and, and working, you know, and I, and I will say this too, like having a co-founder too, has been. For us, I think is an amazing asset. Right. Obviously Scott and I's relationship, but I don't, I give so much credit to individual founders. You know, when you're, you're trying to do it on your own and it's been great to, to, you know, build Scott and i's relationship, but really coming together of like bouncing ideas off of each other.

We both have different points of views and I think that that's helped. ~Um, ~but certainly some of the challenges too are like, you know, just operational things, right? Where it's like, hey, like this is actually what it costs to get a minimum order quantity of a, of a, of a, of an item. You know? And you're like, Hey, we wanna run a small batch, but a, a supplier, the, that you love of their ingredient goes, no, you gotta order triple the amount that you think you need to order.

So you also need to be very nimble, right? Even just on like the basics of that. ~Um. ~And on the other end is like, you wanna be competitive and offer the most, the best pricing ever in your head. You have a feeling [00:39:00] of like, wow, this makes this pricing most comp competitive,~ uh,~ com, you know, compelling. But then on the other end of it's like, oh wait, now we're not, now we're actually almost losing money here.

So I think for us it's been a lot of like truly just like learning like, all right, this is what it means to do this. And this is also how to,~ uh,~ what's the word we always say? It's like you can have the coolest looking stuff, but you also need to de ~uh, ~deliver on value prop. Value prop is just as important as your cool name and your packaging.

So what's the 

Rose Hamilton: most difficult decision you've had to make so far? 

Scott Turner: Hmm. That's a great question. Hmm. ~Um, ~I, I, I, I'll, I'll kind of try to like, think like, you know, think my way through this one. I'd say. You know, one, one evolution that, that continues to happen and that I,~ uh,~ will happen forever is,~ um,~ you know, how quickly.

Do you pivot when you think that you've learned something? Like what is the, what is the length of time that it takes to learn a [00:40:00] lesson? When are you dragging something out, when you should have pivoted and when are you making a snap decision? Right? Like, where's that balance of, of good decision making?

And like Nick was saying, that's why having a co-founder in, in our relationship is so useful because,~ um,~ you know, we can really work through these things together. ~Um, ~in terms of the most difficult decision, I would say that honestly,~ um,~ the most, you know, and, and difficult can mean a couple of different things.

I'd say that the scariest decision is always. I am leaving the security of my job in an industry that I've worked in for,~ uh,~ you know, a decade or so, and I am diving into this full time. And, you know, I have a four month old son. Nick has a daughter on the way in three months. ~Um, ~you know, we're, we're in a position where.

You know, [00:41:00] often logic would tell you just stay in the secure position that you're in. ~Um, ~but also Nick and I have no illusions, at least with where we're at right now, and we've started this, that,~ um,~ you know, we, we kind of looked at each other and said, if we don't go all in on, on this now, will we ever do it?

Or are we gonna talk about, Hey, you know, maybe we'll start this company one day forever. So I'd say. The, the, the biggest leap was that, and, and kind of like, you know, going all in on this company and leaving behind the security and the health insurance and the 401k and the paycheck, right? Like, and, and just going in on it.

And I'd say the most difficult decision,~ um,~ honestly, it's. That, that has a lot to do with, in my opinion, at least so far. ~Um, ~where are we putting the small amount of capital that we have a avail available to us? Where are we [00:42:00] putting that in the business? Because it's this chicken in the egg thing constantly.

It's. ~Um, ~we can put money towards that learning that we were talking about and really getting in with the customer and really figuring out what's driving the sales and, and all of that. Or we can try to.~ Um, ~squeeze as much inventory out as possible because, you know, frankly, a fear that we have is selling out, right?

And then having this long,~ um,~ operational timeline to get more product available to purchase and kind of being in this limbo and having to relaunch and things like that. ~Um, ~and so I'd say that for me that's the most difficult decision is, you know, I. Look, in a perfect world, you have the money to do it all right?

But that's just not the world that we live in. ~Um, ~it's, it's, we have to choose what can we put our money behind? And there is a very reasonable and just, and sound argument for all of the choices that one could make. And it's up to Nick and I [00:43:00] to decide. What are the needs of the business right now? And that's essentially where we're taking a bet on our own gut feelings, right?

And like, you know, it's a little more than our gut, but at the end of the day, that's kind of what it comes back to as well. You can do all the analysis in the world, but again, these are all sound arguments that are being made for one decision versus another. So I'd say it's just like. How do you advance the business when you do not have the means to push everything forward at once?

You know, what, what, what pieces are you pushing before the others? Where are you taking your bets? Where do you think the learnings and, and the kind of,~ uh,~ lessons are the most? So that's what I'd say. 

Rose Hamilton: Yeah. And it, it does make sense that that is the hard part of it. And I think, you know, once you do get to a place where you've got more capital coming in, where are you looking to expand?

I mean, we've talked about the role of fitness,~ um,~ enthusiasts, we've talked about the role of athletes. Where and how do you think you'll go to market? Like if you [00:44:00] had an infinite number of dollars available to you right now, where would you, where would you look to beyond organic? 

Scott Turner: ~Um, ~yeah, that's another great question.

I think, you know, one thing is if we had an infinite amount of infinite amount of dollars, I still think that we would wanna spend as little as possible to learn as much as we can. That's because. You know, we've both worked in organizations that had a very large amount of capital and it gets reckless really quickly and no one is, is necessarily safe from that.

~Um, ~and so, you know, for us, in my opinion, it's community building. It's ~um, ~again, getting athletes on board with us, getting sponsorships on board. ~Um, ~it's, it's continuing to push out and do the gorilla marketing that we're doing, where we're on the ground just at a larger scale. I think for Nick and I, we have a really good blueprint of what we're trying to do.

~Um, ~and it would just be [00:45:00] more of that then. Okay. On the other side, it's being able to. Test more ads, test more content, have a higher volume of content coming out,~ um,~ and really figuring out, okay, what's resonating with the target customer that we have right now? So we're learning what's resonating with them on the ground.

And then we're saying, okay, now on the digital side, how can we replicate that and really bring this thing full circle? And then I'd say the third thing is just product innovation, right? Like. We have a product roadmap that we wanna execute on eventually. ~Um, ~we don't wanna just be an oatmeal. That's why misery and mayhem is, is product agnostic.

We don't wanna just only be oatmeal. ~Um, ~we wanna own this space. We wanna own the, the recovery and the people getting after its space. And so the earlier that we can figure out the viability of new products, the better. And then we can also, you know. [00:46:00] Come out with new skews for our oatmeal flavors, seasonal things, stuff like that.

So I'd say that that's really where our heads are at, on, on that side. 

Nicholas Lagonia: Yeah. And the only other thing that I would add too,~ um,~ is, and Scott already had mentioned this too, is like doing our own community events and what that looks like. Mm-hmm. And getting people together. So, like for us, Scott himself is a, you know, ultra marathoner, but like, you know, I've done them myself and, you know, doing the, for example, the misery and Mayhem 5K Right.

And getting our community together to do that and, and also investing a little bit. ~Um, ~we're really proud of our merch too, and we're not a, you know, we're not an apparel business, but it does add something to our brand and we want it to have more depth, so I think that would mm-hmm. Be something else that we would like, love to do is, is to get, you know, this community of athletes together, whether it's at a race or maybe we're sponsoring a i a CrossFit type of act.

It just, it's good for us too, to. Really bring people together. And we think that that's really the best way too, to learn and then also to grow it, right? And so [00:47:00] it's not just like the quick breakfast you have in the morning. It's really a, it's a lifestyle and it's something that you can also talk to people as well that are in this community.

Rose Hamilton: Well, and one thing that I just love that you guys have in your, in your boxes right now are these incredible stickers. And, and something that I have not mentioned,~ um,~ is your use of humor. I love the almost irreverent feeling when I look at the brand in terms of like really being ready to be bold and tackle and take on the world and get after it as you describe it.

So you know that that is another curiosity I have is that clearly you've been intentional,~ um,~ uphill both ways. Wake up, feed the Beast. Follow me. I'm lost. I mean, these are just, they're fantastic. They're wonderful. Oats and mayhem don't struggle hungry. Like they're just, they're great. How did you arrive upon some of the humor aspects of this brand?

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Turner: So I'll, I'll, I'll [00:48:00] keep this one brief and then I'll pass it over to Nick and let him really expand on it. But,~ um,~ we wanted to be. This is kind of an overused word, authentic, but we, we wanted to meet people with where they were. ~Um, ~and, and so a lot of fitness content and it's great. And, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, is very aspirational.

And you kind of have the people who are doing the hardest thing that you can possibly imagine. And,~ um,~ you know, it's like. And then insert product name. Right. ~Um, ~and, and that's great. And, and, and, and it, and it works, right? Clearly it works because it's being done and it's been done for a while. We kind of wanted to,~ uh,~ reach people at the level where it's like.

~Um, ~no, like being in the gym can be incredibly aggravating and frustrating, and there are a lot of days where you just wanna walk out before you've even completed your warmup, and it feels like this kind of insurmountable task, and you're just kind [00:49:00] of clawing your way through it. You're questioning, why am I even doing this?

You know, I can't stand my trainer or I don't wanna talk to, you know, whoever, or, or I don't wanna do this last set. Why do I have to do this last set? I have a lot of stuff to do. I'm a busy person, you know, I have to get ready for work. I don't have time for this last set, but, but I, but I need to do it.

And so. Anyway, it's just that relatability. ~Um, ~and we kind of felt like in the fitness space, we weren't seeing as much of that,~ um,~ as kind of like, yep, you just like conquer the next goal and then, you know, you're onto the next one. And,~ um,~ you know, we all train and we all do this stuff and so, ~uh, ~anyone who does it knows that there's this other side of it that can be.

Again, like frustrating and, and difficult and not,~ uh,~ you know, you have maybe one out of every five, six workouts where you just feel amazing and incredible the whole time. And then the rest you're just kind of like, your feet are taking you to the, to the gym. Your mind doesn't want to go, but [00:50:00] your feet take you there, right?

And your feet take you through the workout and your body takes you through the workout and your brain is kind of two steps behind. So we really wanted to speak to that, and that's a lot of, like our brand voices is relating to people in that way. 

Nicholas Lagonia: Yeah. That's 

Rose Hamilton: amazing. 

Nicholas Lagonia: Yeah, I don't have much more to actually add.

I mean, that's really where it came from. Relatability meeting people where they're, they're at, and like truly from like I can speak to myself, my own authentic experience of, of, of, you know, working out a lot, learning this world and can actually be pretty funny sometimes. Right. And you know, I think we have this thing we say sometimes, like wellness doesn't always have to be so serious.

Like, we can provide some levity. We can make you laugh a little bit. And I think people in today's, you know, people could use a good laugh. Even if you're crushing an insane workout, whether it's in the gym on a run or whatever that looks like for you, it's okay to laugh. It's okay to actually learn to enjoy it.

It's also okay to like hate what you're doing a little bit and that's alright too, you know, but it's six o'clock in the morning and you're up and it's freezing cold out. You're going to the gym and you know, there's that, that, that evokes feeling. So, 

Rose Hamilton: and [00:51:00] there's that. 

Nicholas Lagonia: I don't be here and like you're, you know, and, ~uh.~

Maybe you don't want to eat healthy today either. Maybe you just don't want to, you know, and I know that feeling very well, so it's like, oh, i's like, don't eat, but, you know, so if we can provide you a little bit of levity, a little bit of like, wow, this brand, like doesn't just make me feel like I'm excluded, you know, like, I get it, you know, and that covers a, a pretty large target, in my opinion, of, of people that work out and are at least trying to better themselves.

Rose Hamilton: That's great. Well, guys, we're coming up upon the end and I think I have one last question for you as we wrap it up here, which is, what would you tell your younger self that you know now that you wish you would've known when you started this business?

Scott Turner: Man, that's a great question. ~Um, ~if I'm being completely honest, it would be,~ uh,~ what pretty much everyone says, which is,~ uh,~ you're gonna have to be a lot more [00:52:00] patient than you think you are. This is gonna take a lot more time than you think it will. And,~ um,~ you know, buck buckle up basically. ~Um, ~because the ideas that you have that you think are amazing.

~Um, ~and even if you can execute on some of that, it's, it's, that is such a small fraction of what it takes to actually be successful,~ um,~ in building a business, especially at CCP G one. ~Um, ~so that would be mine. 

Rose Hamilton: I, I have to tell you, I could not agree with you more. That old P word, the old patience word, is such a challenge because I think to be a successful entrepreneur.

Or a founder or building or creating anything, you have to have the grit to get through it. That's one angle, but you also have to have the patience to just keep showing up. And it really truly is a marathon when you're building a business and it can't be a sprint. Mm-hmm. You'll wind up burning yourself out and you'll go right over the cliff and then you're just not gonna [00:53:00] keep pursuing, you know, your dreams.

And so I think, I think that's really important. Nick, any words of wisdom for you or thoughts? 

Nicholas Lagonia: Yeah, I think doing this entrepreneurial journey is going to show you a lot more about who you are, and you, there's a, there's a lot of personal growth that comes from this, so it's not just like showing up to your,~ uh,~ job.

It's not, it's, it becomes a lot. So I think learning. Who you are, learning how to be better in certain situations, and then also valuing the people in your life that support you. Because it could be, oddly, I, I mean Scott and I have each other, but it is isolating too, a little bit like, you're on this journey, you're trying to figure this out.

And so, you know, really, like, I, I think I, I mean it like having those support systems too, and, and, and. Talking to them, having a, you know, whether that's your partner, your friend, your family, whoever that is in your life, like, go to them. Don't be afraid. 'cause it's, it can be sometimes like, I'm on an island out here, or Scott and I, or at least on an island, you know, but,~ uh,~ that's what I would say, like, [00:54:00] have some patience with yourself too, man, you know?

Rose Hamilton: Yeah. It's really true. Well guys, you are just such a delight to watch and seeing you just tackle this and take on feedback and learn from it and keep going and keep moving. Clearly, clearly you're having your product every day. That's what I have to say about that. And you're enjoying it and you're having a lot of fun on the journey.

So it's,~ um,~ it's been such a delight to have you guys. Any final words before we close? 

Scott Turner: No, just thanks so much for having us, really appreciate this opportunity. It's, it's huge for us, especially at this stage, so we're just super grateful. 

Nicholas Lagonia: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. It was, it was a lot of fun too. 

Rose Hamilton: You are so welcome.